SCETV is here live at the South Carolina State Museum.

Palmetto Perspectives starts now.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Sierra Artemus> Welcome to Palmetto Perspectives.

You're taking a live look outside of the South Carolina State Museum.

I am your host, Sierra Artemus, and we have quite a discussion ahead of us.

June is National Men's Health Month, and the theme for tonight's show, "The Lost Boys", explores how the pressures placed on men can shape their health, identity and the generations that follow.

Now, obviously, I am not a man.

So to help us with our discussion tonight, we're going to be leaning heavily on our men and our subject matter experts.

So, joining us tonight, we have Undergraduate Director with the University of South Carolina's Department of Women's and Gender Studies, Dr.

Dawn Campbell.

Founder of Big Homie Lil Homie Mentoring, Jamal Stroud, Executive Director of N.A.M.I., the National Alliance on Mental Illness, Zenethia Brown, and Director of Community Engagement for the South Carolina Center for Fathers and Families, Marc Himes.

Thank you all so much for being here.

Panel> Thank you for having us.

Sierra> Absolutely.

Well, there is a chance that we're going to be discussing some heavy topics tonight, and if you are facing a mental health crisis, be sure to contact the National Mental Health Hotline at 9-8-8.

We're also going to share resources towards the end of our show, as well.

So we're going to jump right in.

My first question.

Men, y'all, aight (all right)?

You okay?

(panel giggles) I know that there's a lot of discussions that happen behind the scenes amongst women, with their friends and guys with their boys, but this is an opportunity for us to have a safe space to share, what are some things that men are struggling with?

So I want to start with the two men on my panel today, Jamal and Marc.

So, either one of you take it away.

What are you struggling with?

Jamal Stroud> Yes, Sierra, I would just be transparent with you.

A lot of struggles that I deal with is just the pressure of trying to show up for everyone.

But when I do that, who's showing up for me?

So just the pressure and the weight of that alone is something that we can digest and talk about for this entire time.

Sierra> Well, tell me, how do you, how do you handle that?

Those pressures?

Jamal> So when it comes to the pressure, a lot of self care, of course, when it comes to music and all those wonderful things.

But when it comes to that, I want to make sure I surround myself with the right people that can check in on me to make sure that I'm doing okay.

But it's one thing to say "I'm okay".

As men, it's really easy for me to say "I'm good.

I'm straight", but knowing I have a burden on my back.

I have a deadline.

I have so much stresses going on, but I have to be able to look at the man in the mirror, no pun intended, but to say, "Am I truly okay?

Am I aight?"

Sierra> Now, do you feel like you suppress a lot of that?

Because I know that some men aren't very vocal with the way that they feel.

So you may lean on some people, but maybe not so much.

Jamal> Yes, for me, like I said, just being transparent, giving it to you real, I suppress a lot and that's just my default.

And sometimes I'm like, why am I suppressing this?

I have people that say, "Hey, Jamal, are you okay?"

But how would they know if I'm okay if I'm just totally suppressing it behind a smile to say, "I'm okay, I'm good," "I'm going to push through."

But what happens when I don't have that extra ummph to push through?

Sierra> Right.

And thank you so much for that transparency, as well.

Marc, how about you?

Marc Himes> I think I'm okay.

(all laugh) Sierra> You aight?

Marc> Yeah, I'm aight.

I'm all right.

I'm all right.

And I think also from the perspective of the work I do as well.

So, we have a statewide network of fatherhood programs and checking in with them, they are not okay.

There's a lot of outside pressure.

Jamal already used the term and we use it.

We call it man pressure, right.

So many things externally that are going on that impact men.

You know, even that traditional role of being providers and some of the roles we've taken on, there's a lot of pressure on us.

And so I'm finding that a lot of our men or a lot of our participants, a lot of my friends are not okay.

And just like Jamal said, though, we kind of suppress it, we keep it in.

And that makes it even harder because we're not letting things out.

We're not getting the help and the support that we need.

Sierra> I love that you mentioned something about tradition, and that's jumping right into some of the, a very heavy topic.

Do you feel like the roles of women and men have evolved, and if so, do you think that kind of, is a part of that pressure, men trying to figure out what their role is today?

Marc> I believe that is part of it.

I'm going to coin a new term.

<Okay.> I believe we need to become what's called what I call the new man.

Right.

So, so roles have changed, whether that's parenting, whether that's work.

You can have women in supervisory and leadership roles.

Men may not make as much, those types of things.

Even the changes in work, you know, less physical labor, more, you can sit at home and work now.

That wasn't something, the case 20, 30, 40 years ago.

And I think as a new, as, we as men have to make the adjustment and settle into society and take on different roles and be flexible enough to fit, whether that's being a stay at home parent, whether that's accepting a role where you're not using your hands and doing things more from an intellectual standpoint.

So I think there is a crossroads taking place right now, and some men are trapped in that and not really finding their place.

Sierra> Thank you for that.

And I know that this is typically a discussion, as I mentioned earlier, that we typically talk about amongst ourselves, not necessarily in a co-ed space, but at the University of South Carolina, Dr.

Campbell, this is actually a part of your curriculum.

So if you could share more about that.

Dr.

Dawn Campbell> Yes.

So... you can't talk about women, right, without talking about men and femininity and masculinity and all of those things where we definitely build those into the core of our, our courses.

And we even have a course that's titled, "Men and Masculinity", and we say it should be masculinities, plural, because the traditional, more traditional masculinity, there's much more to it than, than that, as some of the panelists have already have already mentioned.

So.... Sierra> Absolutely.

And I think back to what Jamal mentioned earlier, you know, being intentional about where you, where you are mentally and how you feel, and Zenethia I'm going to throw you in there because we got to talk about the mental health aspect.

And not only are you with N.A.M.I., you're actually a mom of two boys.

<Absolutely> You've seen this from the ground up because you have young men now.

Zenethia> Yes I do.

Yes, I do.

Sierra> So, talk about what it's like raising young men as a mom.

Zenethia> Yeah.

As as a mom, you know, I want to love on them.

I want to nurture them.

And I want them to also be strong men.

I want them to be, understand that they need to be the head of their households one day, that they're going to, you know, they have to take ownership of their lives.

But at the same time, I want them to be able to talk to me.

I want them to be able to come to me with their feelings.

I want them to know that I'm a safe space for them, and I want them to share their emotions.

And as a parent, the problem I have is, I don't want them, that to be either or.

You know, I don't want them to either be strong or vulnerable.

I want them to be able to be both.

And so, as a single mom, to be able to kind of say, okay, I'm going to love on you, give you all the nurturing that you need.

But at the same time, I need you to be strong.

It's, it's kind of tough, you know, because there's so much that they're going through that I don't, did not have to experience in my life, but I'm having to watch it from other people and take notes from other people and go, come, go home and share that with my kids and understand that I need to shift my parenting.

You know, I have to be the mom, and I know you're not going to like it, but I also have to be, you know, at some point, be the be the, be the man, be the oh, don't want to say that I have to be the father figure, you know, and not necessarily father figure, but I have to teach them how to be a man, <Oh, man> how to be men.

<I'm literally-> and that's hard.

Sierra>Absolutely.

I'm literally thinking of two things at once.

You know, Marc you, you work with, you know, fathers and families and it's and it leads me to something that I talked to you...off camera.

You spoke with a group of young men and you asked them, "What does a father do?"

And there's so many people that they don't have that example in the homes.

They don't necessarily even know the first thing about that.

So when we think about pressures of men, not only do you have to battle like, what is masculinity?

It's also like, how do I become, how do I, how do I be a father if I never had that example?

So I love that you said that even though I know you felt conflicted about it.

I love that you mentioned that.

So share a little more about that, Marc.

Marc> So in the United States, for example, we are the worldwide leader in fatherless homes.

We are, almost 25% percent of our homes nationwide are single parent homes now.

Other developed countries not even close 6%, 7% percent.

We are at 23% percent.

So we, we have a changing dynamic that's really just emerged over the last 30, 40, 50 years.

Secondly, of course, that's the United States, plus South Carolina.

Y'all know, we often are on the bottom.

And so, we are at close to 40% percent in South Carolina.

Some of the poor, rural communities are even higher as far, as high as 50%, 60% percent.

So, in some of those counties, those rural communities, you're, you're less likely to have a father in your home than you are to have a two parent home.

And so that, that creates a different dynamic.

Now you've got more pressure on a mother to fulfill both roles.

Now, you don't have that, that discipline and some of the traditional things that fathers provide.

So and then figuring out your role as a father, as she was saying earlier.

So there's a lot of dynamics that are taking place now, and I don't think we've quite figured it out as a society, you know, how do you raise young men when the father is not there?

Often those young men are angry because the father is not there.

So there's a lot of things that are going on both sides that that's causing some confusion.

And to answer your question, I had the chance to talk to young men in Charleston, and I said, what, what do you think a father is?

They were silent.

They had no idea what the role was because they hadn't seen it modeled.

So we're getting these young men growing up not knowing what it looks like, and then they just repeat what they've seen.

Sierra> Right.

And what was the age group of those young men that you spoke with?

Marc> These were high school kids.

<Wow.> Young, young high school kids It happened to be a D.J.J.

program.

So obviously some, some legal problems, as well, but if you look statistically, about 80% percent of those that are in prison are from single parent homes.

So it's a major issue in our society.

Sierra> Absolutely.

And I'm going to go to Jamal.

Then I'm going to come back to you Zenethia because I see you burning for the answer.

Zenethia>I just want to clarify something.

Just want to clarify something.

Sierra> Yes.

For sure.

Jamal this is actually a reality for you.

I know that Marc is spewing off these statistics, but you actually were, you were raised in a home without either your father or mother.

What was that like for you?

Jamal> Yes, it was very difficult.

Many of times I felt like, why me?

And when we talk about just the decision making, every decision is a result of a conversation.

So the fact that my parents weren't able to stay together was a result of a conversation.

So it boils back down to when we work with our kids today, how are we teaching them how to have an actual conversation?

A lot of times we run and hide from hard times, hard decisions.

But these are just some things here.

But there's been many of sleepless nights for me, being in foster care, removed from home to home to home.

So of course, looking in the mirror to say, "How can I be a man, if I'm not seeing it?"

"How can I be successful if I'm not seeing it?"

And when we talk about those things, it's really tough, but it's about how can I move forward in that?

And then, when we talk about those things, it's just a fact that our kids are searching for love in so many different ways.

Our men are searching for love in so many different ways in bedrooms, but we're searching for those loves because our parents didn't give us love in the living room.

So the simple fact that we're searching for some things and we're not being the best that we can be because we're missing that piece.

So, it's very hard to try to have a complete piece if you don't have those pieces, such as a parent, such as a grandparent.

And we know, just times now, grandparents are young.

They're in their 30s.

They're in their 40s.

Who's raising the kids?

Who's being there for that person?

Who's being that stone person for them?

So, it's very difficult.

That's why we need to have more of these conversations to say, how can we create a healthy man, healthy woman, healthy family, a healthy community?

Sierra> Absolutely.

And I also want to mention, you know, you said that you it was really hard for you to figure out what it was like to be a man without the example.

That was growing up, and then you became a father yourself.

So, what were some of the challenges you faced as a father without that example?

Was there a father figure in your life?

Jamal> So, so with that, it's always a haunting moment in my mind and, and in my heart as well, too.

Am I good enough?

Can I be there for my child?

Can I be there for my children?

And it's just that always that moment in my mind, especially when I'm... mentally weak or physically weak, we start to not think clearly, to say, I may be just like my father and knowing I'm not because I'm still here.

Eight years later, I'm still here.

Nine years later, I'm still here.

So it's really difficult.

But just growing up, and when it comes to mentoring the mentors that I have, I can pull on them to kind of get life experience seeing what a man, what it looks like.

And men, it's not perfect.

We're not perfect at all.

But just knowing, hey, "I need help.

I've never done this before."

And they say, "Jamal, "being a parent, there's no manual to it.

"You can't ChatGPT it."

"You have to kind of go through it."

But that comes with the village to do the dirty work.

Sierra> Absolutely.

And then, I'm going to go to Zenethia and then we'll go back to Dr.

Campbell.

So Zenethia?

Zenethia> And I just wanted to clarify some things.

You know, I got divorced in 2021, but for the, for a long time, and my ex will, you know, attest to this, I was a married single mother.

And so, you know, although I was married, although my ex was in the home, he was not engaged as much as he needed to be.

You know, he could do all the mechanical things on a car.

At 18, I had to teach my son how to pump gas.

So, you know, even though he was in the home, he wasn't necessarily leading the home like he should have, and he recognizes that now.

But at the time I was, I was a single married mom.

Sierra> And it's so ironic that you mention that because Dr.

Campbell, we had a discussion about that, as well.

Hidden roles that women play.

And I think a lot of times men are so used to being the provider that there are things that kind of slip through the cracks.

Can you talk more about that?

Dr.

Campbell> Yes.

So something I've actually become very interested in with research and including in my classes more over the last few years, is this idea of invisible labor.

And so invisible labor, there are many components to it, like emotional labor, cognitive labor, all of those things.

And so that includes like care work, and not just for children, but women disproportionately take care of all the family members, right?

Extended family, parents, aging parents, anyone who gets sick in the family, it's disproportionately women.

So that's part of that invisible labor.

Anticipating needs.

You know, that's something we don't really talk about enough.

Think about enough probably, disproportionately falls on women, the mother, right, of the family or, you know, the, and I'm also, I was a single mom.

My daughter is now almost 20.

And so and her father moved across the country when she was eight years old.

So I understand, you know, we, we relate some to this.

And I know, we've talked about this too, Sierra.

So I have some personal experience with it too.

And I also grew up in a home with a single mom.

My dad left when I was young and he was not involved.

And even when he was, they were married, He was still not...my mother did all the invisible labor, right.

Unpaid invisible labor, because we talk about pay, unpaid too, and she worked outside the home 40 hours a week.

I just think about, you know, how in the world did she do it?

She had three children.

And you do what you have to do.

You know, we all know that.

I certainly have.

So I grew up with that invisible labor, not, not having a, a term for it, obviously, at that time, but I certainly see it now.

And it's interesting in many of the class discussions in some of the classes that I teach, I will say predominantly for the in-person classes that I teach, it's predominantly young women, right?

Online classes I teach, it's about 50/50.

I get a lot of young men in those classes, which is great.

And so, but in a lot of the in-person, we'll have discussions.

I'll make it a more discussion based class because you need to talk about these topics as we're doing today.

And many of the young women don't even, they're not even thinking about marriage because of that invisible labor component.

They are very aware.

So, what used to be not talked about invisible, right to the conversation, they're very aware of it.

And, and these, you know, I'm thinking more of heterosexual women in the classes who just, they, they talk about how it does not appeal to them.

Marriage does not appeal to them.

Having children does not appeal to them because they want to have their career, and they don't want to then have to also deal with that invisible labor component.

Sierra> And that's a great segue to when we think about traditional households.

The invisible labor, I think, you know, years ago it was more so the man that worked, the woman was home.

So that was more the focus.

But the struggle today again, circles back to the first thing that we talked about earlier, just how the roles have evolved.

So let's, let's talk a little bit more about the evolution of those roles and just the, the huge impact that invisible labor can have on that.

So anyone can take us away.

Zenethia?

Zenethia> Well, okay.

You know, and I, I feel like, you know, I don't know, the men are necessarily lost as much as they are trying to figure out what they're supposed to be in a day when the rules have changed, you know.

Again, like you said, you know, the rules have always been the men provide, they protect and they lead.

And like you said, women are, women are C.E.O.s now, You know, "I can protect myself."

I can, you know, "I can provide for myself."

And, you know, the one thing that I want you to protect is my heart.

And when you don't do that, then you become somebody I need the protection from.

And so, you know, I need.

So it's, it's a way for... I feel like, you know, things are changing.

And we as women have changed a lot because laws have changed.

And we're just waiting for the right man, the right men to catch up Marc> The new man.

Zenethia> The new man to catch up.

Yeah.

The new man to catch up.

You know, because me personally, you know, I'm single now.

I, I have been dating.

and I don't want to remarry.

That is something that I've just decided that I don't want to do because I enjoy my peace right now.

And I, I do, wash, do laundry for one, you know, (laughs) ...and I eat out when I want, but at the time when I was married, I wanted a partner and I didn't have that.

And I felt like I was a servant.

When you don't, when we don't come together and do things together, it becomes servitude rather than partnership.

Marc> Wow!

Sierra> Well said.

Jamal?

Jamal> Yeah.

I was just going to say, when it comes to the new man, as we're talking about, right, it comes with you have to be secure in your own self because we understand the traditional stuff of providing this and providing that is no longer because you all can provide for yourself.

Correct?

So with that being said, you just have to find that man that's secure in his own self and secure in his own thinking.

But we understand social media plays a big trend in that as well too, because what a man sees on social media, they may internalize them and say, I need to try that or I need to try this.

So these are just some things when we talk about just this new man or this new mentality of just being able to be open to those items, as well, too, and not thinking it's a pride hit because she can handle her own.

Marc> If I could add to the other side of it.

So because society has changed, there's a statement that says the absence of dad equals the presence of government, right?

So because dad is no longer there as much, now we have to step in and provide resources and housing and, you know, W.I.C.

which stands for women, infants and children, which means they're not getting the resources they need.

And so now there, there's this thing where they can women can rely on other resources, because he's not there.

Well, I can go get this.

I can go get that.

So it's almost working against itself.

There's something called the benefits cliff where people are tapping into benefits.

But then if you start, you know, if the man moves in, Sierra> You lose it.

benefits gone.

So okay, I'm not going to have the father move in because I need to make sure I still got child care, things like that.

So we've kind of gotten to this place where it's almost working against each other.

The camaraderie, the partnership that we should be seeking is somehow discouraged because of the way things are.

Sierra> It almost sounds like, from what I'm hearing from you all that men and women are working against each other, you know, and I think that is a common theme when you think of social media, it's always feels like it's women versus men.

When you think about, you know, when young boys are being raised, they're being compared to being, "Oh, don't act like a little girl if you're crying".

You know?

And so, it's almost like, and Dr.

Campbell, you could probably speak more to that as far as I don't want to say creating like a negative mindset when it comes to women, because as children, men are already kind of being pitted against women in a sense, if that makes sense.

Dr.

Campbell> Yes.

And, you know, I think it all connects back to like the gender binary, which we talk about a lot in women's and gender studies, where it's sort of..., we're sort of conditioned to that kind of what you were just saying that men and women or girls and boys are so different and you can condition them to be different, but we're actually much more alike than we are different.

But those differences are dangerous because that's where it's really connected and interconnected with patriarchy.

And...with, like I said, the gender binary gender roles, norms, expectations, gender scripts, all of those things come into play so that, you know, certain jobs are only for men and certain jobs are for women.

And we also have to talk about race, you know, so "intersectionality" is huge, obviously, in women's and gender studies.

That's one of the core foundational concepts and theories in women's and gender studies.

And so, we really, we really can't talk about gender without talking about race and class, like they're all interconnected.

Sierra> I think that's a great direction to go in.

Let's talk about that, as well.

You work with fathers and families.

So, what Dr.

Campbell mentioned about race, how, what are you seeing statistically from people that are coming in through your program?

Marc> So, we have a statewide network of fatherhood programs, mostly larger, large counties, but some of the rural areas, as well.

And you'll see differences as far as, you know, location and things like that.

I think the biggest thing is the class thing though.

I think there are some norms for, if you allow me to say lower class or lower income families that are different from, you know, higher income, ...even going back, Ruby, Ruby Payne wrote a book called "Framework for Understanding Poverty", and she talked about the hidden rules among class.

And you're seeing that with couples and relationships.

Richer people are more likely to be married.

Right?

So, so there are some cultural norms that come along with class.

And that also indicates that, you know, we were talking earlier about the needs.

She was talking about, I don't really need this.

I need this from you.

So, if the money is taken care of, then, then there's more room for me to do other things.

So I think we see that, as well, the differences with class and race and the, because of those differences, you're seeing how they view relationships differently.

And so those that are a lower income and often, and unfortunately, minorities, as well are less likely to, to get married, those types of things, as well.

Sierra> And Zenethia, I see the bells and the turning of... Zenethia> I'm listening.

I'm listening.

And I was thinking about what you were saying about, you know, the social media and things like that.

And I do follow some singles groups, especially Black singles groups.

And there is a combative nature to them.

It's like there's a, yeah, there's a very strong "us against them" kind of thing.

And you know, I don't understand it.

And like when people say, what do you bring to the table?, then there's also, there's, there's immediate argument, you know, and when I say things like, you know, "I don't want to settle", you know, that for whatever reason that becomes a buzzword that something's negative.

And it's just, you know, I don't, I want someone to be able to say, like you were saying, if this is what I offer and this is what I bring to the table, I need you to be comfortable with that.

I'm not trying to rule you out.

I'm not trying to say I don't need you.

I'm simply saying, I want to do this together, you know, and as you were talking about, you know, there are wealthier families, wealthy families tend to stay together.

If my ex had been a millionaire, I probably would still be with him.

(All laugh) Sierra> Things have changed.

That changes everything.

Zenethia> That changes a lot.

Yeah, it changes a lot.

Sierra> For a little bit more.

For a little bit more.

Zenethia> I'm just saying it changes a lot.

You know, if I, if I got the bag.

Yeah.

But, but, but, if we're on equal footing and I'm doing all the work in the home and you know, and I'm doing everything with the kids, then, you know, I make enough to where, you know what, I probably can outsource you.

And, and I know that, that is somewhat of... I'm sorry.

I know, I know that is not, that I know that is not a... Marc> That's a strong one.

Zenethia> That's a strong one.

Yes.

Because if you, if you're telling me that the thing that you bring to the table is, you know, Sierra> -Something you can provide for yourself.

Zenethia>...something I can provide for myself, and not only can I provide it for myself, but then I get more peace.

<Oof!> You know, it can be worth it.

<Wow!> Sierra> That was very powerful.

Zenethia> I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Sierra> Let me, let me, let me ask this.

So I'm just going to throw this one right out there.

<Okay> Do you all feel... and I'm going to direct this towards the men.

Do you feel like there's an attack on manhood or, or masculinity right now?

Because when we think about traditional values, we think about the provision that we mentioned, the protection that we get from men.

And now, as Zenethia put it, women can do it for themselves.

There is a surgence on social media.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with the "manosphere", where they're basically going against that attack, if you will, reinforcing those traditional, or I would say, stereotypical roles of men.

So do you feel like there's an attack?

I had to put all that in there just to make it a nice little pizza.

Jamal> I would say yes, there's always been an attack on men, but that's not the excuse for why some men don't show up.

Like we have to continue to evolve as well, too.

But at the same time, there are women attacking men, but there are also men attacking men as well, too.

We can say all of these great things about men, but it's really about what's your character like?

And if our character isn't good, then how can we show up for our young ladies?

How can we show up for our kids?

But also it boils back down to "Are you okay?"

Like how we talked about earlier?

"Are you all right?"

A lot of pressure that we have, we hold in, we keep it tight.

And guess what?

Sooner or later it's going to blow.

It's going to explode and blow up on someone.

So therefore it may blow up internally and them not showing up for their commitments.

It may be a situation from a generational cycle of just saying, my father didn't show up.

I'm just going to fall in line and not show up either.

And then also, it may be another line of that as well, too, with providing, I'm'a just provide, but I'm not going to be there.

I'm not going to be there physically or mentally in the home.

It's one thing to be around your son or be around your kids or be around your wife, but are you physically there or are you mentally there?

Because they can feel the check out, and if they feel that check out, they're going to search for love somewhere else.

So, of course, there's an attack, but we have to do a better job as men too, to keep ourselves straight, but also making sure that the women keep us online as well too, as you say.

Sierra> Right.

And I'm gonna do another check in.

Men are y'all aight.

I know you guys are listening.

Is there anybody in the audience right now that wants to chime in, maybe personal experience or a question for the panelists?

Yes, sir.

Guest #1> My name is ... Sierra> We're going to bring a mic to you.

Guest #1> I'm a "Big Homie" from "Big Homie Lil Homie" We always talk to our boys and we always give our boys a safe place to be, to show their emotions, cry if they want to.

Dr.

Jamal, I don't always know how to say it, but he, he says something like, "You don't get no trophy for holding it in."

You know, I probably said it wrong, but it's something like that.

So, we always give a safe place for our boys to be emotionally, and show and display.

Right?

But what I was going to also say was I've always talked about the American dream, right?

Which I don't want to get in trouble for this.

I don't believe in it because everything I've done to achieve the American dream, I did it before I was 40, 40 years old, and I'm still looking for something, right?

So I think that us as men trying to achieve this so-called thing called American dream is really hurting us mentally, too.

Because I might look at him and he might drive up in a Mercedes Benz, and I'm driving a Buick and I might think, I haven't arrived yet.

Not understanding.

He probably doing some things, I don't, I'm not willing to do to get a Mercedes Benz.

But the American dream, what we see as the American dream is a big house, the fence and all that.

We want that.

And I think that plays a big part on our mental and our stressors too.

Zenethia> And I'd love to address that because one of the things that we did shortly after COVID is that, you know, I saw a lot of men online talking about where can I go to talk and where can I go to share and where can I go to talk about my feelings.

And so we, we basically created a men's support group on ZOOM and not a lot of men showed up.

But one thing that we found was that when they did show up, they didn't talk about depression.

They didn't talk about anxiety.

They talked, They talked about feeling like they've fallen behind, not being where they felt, they felt like they should be at that age.

You know, at this age, I should have a house.

I should be making this much.

I should have a family.

So it was like, not necessarily depression, but more disappointment.

And that was the thing, like you were saying, that was the thing that they were, they were measuring themselves I guess, by a standard that they felt like they couldn't meet at that time, but they saw other people in their families, "Oh, my cousins got this."

And, and I know that, you know, again, it wasn't depression.

It wasn't mental health at the time, but when you're, you isolate yourself, when you feel like you're failing all the time, that leads to mental health conditions.

And so, you know, we wanted to, we wanted them to show up, but they didn't.

And so, as you know, executive director of N.A.M.I.

Mid-Carolina, I'm asking anybody, you know, where can we go to meet them?

Because I know there are men out there that need help and we are willing to go wherever we can, wherever we're welcomed, in, in whatever way and shape and form, you know, they, they allow us in.

Sierra> Now...go ahead, Marc.

Marc> I'm sorry.

That's an awesome statement about what the American dream really is, right?

We so, we equate it to stuff.

But man, I'm a parent now.

We have three kids.

I don't care about a car.

I want them to be, you know, good solid young men, my, my daughter to be, you know, a wholesome young lady.

And we, we have these goals that really don't line up with what really peace is about.

You've referred a lot to, to having peace and all those things.

And, (laughs) and, and really that should be our goal.

But we made it about stuff.

And for men, it's like there's more pressure to, to accomplish the stuff rather than raising positive young men rather than creating peace in our home and treating our wife or girlfriend, whoever it may be, the way they should be treated.

So, I love that point because we've made this thing about stuff, but who cares about the stuff My father just passed.

I could care less about the stuff he gave me, except for the stuff he, you know, really about what he deposited in me.

And that really should be the American dream.

What do we deposit in people?

Sierra> That's beautiful.

And I want to go back, because again, to your point, I commend you, wonderful, wonderful statement there.

We talk about the pressures.

Is that pressure coming from other men, or is that also coming from the expectation that women are putting on men?

Because now we got to, now we got to turn and look at ourselves.

Women, what types of pressures are we putting on men?

And men do you feel like that pressure is coming from women because women see what other people have, and as the pro... excuse me, as the provider, they're expecting that from you to be able to provide for them?

Jamal> I would just say I always tie it back to social media because we are what we see.

We are what we hear.

We are what we view.

So, a lot of us maybe on Instagram or Facebook, and we go through this moment where we see a whole bunch of wedding proposals.

Correct?

And it's like, "Oh, I got to get a ring.

I got to get a ring."

And then you see a whole bunch of people post, "I just closed on a new house."

and it's like, "I got to do this.

I got to do this."

And the list goes on and on and on.

So we start to measure ourselves, but also we have to be able to be confident in our own self as well too, because of that sacrifice.

You don't know what that person had made.

People love to show the highlights of all of the wins, but what about the losses?

What about those things?

But then when we bring those losses to our community, people look at us like we're bad.

People look at us like we're less than, "Oh, you hurting.

Oh, you feel pain?"

"Oh, what's wrong with you?"

But these are just normal emotions that social media glazes over and we can't express, "I'm frustrated.

I'm upset.

I'm feeling suicidal."

Whatever.

All of the emotions that we may be feeling.

So this is just a point that we have to be able to be more of a community centric instead of what the stuff is.

What stuff do you bring to the table?

"Oh you bring a new car to the table?"

"I bring love.

Oh, love isn't enough no more."

"I need a six-figure job."

You know?

So we have to be mindful for these things.

But when it comes to our ladies, I don't want to say too much because I'm outnumbered in the crowd, Zenethia> Oh you know what?

Sierra> It's a safe space.

Zenethia> I got you.

(laughing) Jamal> But, it is a safe space.

But when it comes to that, our ladies, we, we need you to show up for us as well too.

And a simple check in of just saying "What happened to you?"

when we say, "What's wrong with you?

", that's very defensive.

So, when we talk about the trauma informed aspect of it, "What happened to you?"

"Who let you down, who hurt you?"

And that frames it a little bit different because we could be at work busting our butt all day long, getting shouted out at the boss and all of these type of things, and just the pressure of gas going up.

"I got to go food shopping., The baby need diapers."

But when we get in home or we get into our safe spaces, it could potentially be saying, "What's wrong with you?"

And that kind of is a ticking time bomb there.

So we could frame the network or the nature of what we're saying to say what happened to you?

Sierra> Right.

Thank you for that.

And Dr.

Campbell, would you like to chime in?

Dr.

Campbell> There's a lot.

So thank you for sharing that too.

That is really powerful.

I kind of just wanted to go back to the social media part and the "Manosphere".

So you had me watch that documentary.

I made it about 30 minutes, maybe halfway through.

I couldn't take anymore.

(All laugh) It's a documentary called "Manosphere", and essentially it's... so I've known for years that there are online groups, predominantly, to attract younger men, sometimes boys, to condition them.

Let's use that word to... Sierra> You don't want to use the word toxic Dr.

Campbell> towards violence, and particularly violence against women.

And, um, There's a connection with many men who have committed like mass shootings and things like that, who have been in these online spaces.

So yes, it's online, but it's reflected in the real world, what they're, they're being conditioned to do and how the thought process and they're... you know, if they can get younger men who may be vulnerable already, for whatever reason.

There are many reasons, but the "Manosphere" is I think it's a really dangerous thing.

And I think a lot of people just don't really know fully about like, what it is.

And, it also goes back to what we were talking about with this idea of really kind of emphasizing the differences between men and women, right.

And how that can be really dangerous because and these ideals too, that, that was big with the "Manosphere" documentary was, you know, the cars and the, the double standards with the men in the, in the documentary who were saying, you know, I can have many relationships with different women.

But, but then I have one woman who I have children with.

And it was, it's a lot going on, but there are also other, like I said, other groups online that are very directed toward violence and...claim, reclaiming this traditional masculinity that they don't want to let go of.

Right.

And they just want to take it a step further.

And so I think that gets into really dangerous territory when you're trying to do like a polarized, you know, men versus women and also trying to live up to these impossible standards, you know, that social media and the "Manosphere" emphasizes.

Marc> Can I add to that?

I mean, that's a valid point.

We've been, we've said it several times, safe spaces.

Right.

"So I'm frustrated.

Daddy ain't there."

"We're broke.

Tired of...", you know, "the Black man taking my job," all these things that are going on in society, so I start looking for a safe space to express myself.

And often it's not, it's not looking for help.

It's looking for affirmation.

Right?

So if someone would say, "You are right."

"It is the Mexican guy that's taking your job."

"You are right.

It is..." You know... We just...the shooting in Charleston, it was a guy that was, was looking for affirmation that this is right.

I, you know, they are hurting my people and all those things.

And so you're seeing a lot of people that find safe spaces online, men in particular, and they are confirm... you know, they're affirming their thoughts.

They're depressed.

They have anxiety.

They have all this stuff going on.

They're isolated.

And now they get online and they find a group that says, "Hey, you're right.

It is the woman."

"It is the Black guy, it is the Mexican," it is whatever it is.

And now you have the right or the authority to do something to take care of it.

And so that's a very important point.

I think we've got to provide more safe spaces in a, in a comforting, helpful environment, not just somebody to say, "Yeah, you're right, you, you have a right to feel this way.

"They are the problem.

Go take care of it."

Zenethia> A yes space is not always a safe space.

Sierra> And you know what else?

I've seen a surge in podcasts where a lot of men and I'm thinking about mental health.

I'm like, it all comes down to mental health.

But there's a lot more men that are hopping on podcasts and expressing themselves with other men.

And to your point, to other, to ears that will listen.

And then there's those people that are those younger boys, as Dr.

Campbell mentioned, that are now ingesting and consuming that content and feeling affirmed based on what they don't know, because they are children like Mr.

Stroud who may have grown up with, without either parent and looking for some direction.

And because social media is right there in their hands, they have that.

And Zenethia, I want to come to you.

And then I'm going to ask the audience again.

We have a few moments left that I'd like to ask them.

But one thing you mentioned earlier, you make sure that you create a safe space for your sons.

<I do, I do.> and I think about the, the plethora of men that don't have that and how that affects them when they get older and how it impacts them in relationships and how they show up.

Zenethia> And I, and I have had a lot of uncomfortable conversations with my sons, and they hate every second of it.

But I know, I know the alternative of not having that, is that I might lose them... ...and so I would much rather for them to be uncomfortable in this moment and educated rather than to later on... ...not be equipped to deal with whatever comes their way.

And so, you know... What was your question again?

(All laugh) Sierra> Valid, because it was very long.

Zenethia> Okay.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

Sierra> But, but just how you <talk...> You create a safe space for your boys and then also how it impacts them when they get older.

Zenethia> Yes.

Because...Yes, because I need them to be able to tackle those situations and not think, "Okay, it's the end of the world", you know, and today with social media, things don't go away.

You know, you might delete it, but things live.

And so things that used to roll off our back and we got over it in the next week, you know, our kids don't have that privilege.

They don't have that.

And so I have to let my sons know that, you know what?

There's nothing out there that you can do that is worth you taking yourself away from me.

Okay.

Whatever happens, we will tackle it together and come to me, and I hope that they will be the same for their kids.

I hope that they will be the same for their wives, their partners.

Because if I don't demonstrate that, if I don't show them, if I don't walk the walk, then they're going to think that I'm just, it's just all lip service and I need to equip them whether they like it or not, to be able to have those tough conversations later on in their lives.

Sierra> Thank you for that.

And I want to ask the audience again, is this something that you all are seeing?

Is this like a common theme?

Yeah.

Can we get a mic, please?

Addie Rae Allen> Hi, my name is Addie Rae Allen, and I'm a women's and gender studies student at the University of South Carolina.

And I'm really loving this conversation about Internet spaces and the "Manosphere" and how nothing on social media or online stays online.

It is increasingly manifesting as violence, whether that be emotional, domestic, mass violence.

And it's not like you turn 18 and all of a sudden you have Internet access.

Boys are logging on to the Internet at very young ages and having these really violent, pervasive ideas of what an affirmed man is being repeated back to them on these spaces.

So it seems crucial that some sort of early interventions need to be happening for these kids.

We've talked about the D.J.J.

We've talked about mentoring programs.

And so this reminds me of what can be done, like at the institutional level, like maybe at schools.

So I was curious if you guys had ideas of what encouraging and scaffolding vulnerability and building up the new man, as you've called it, in young boys look like at such levels, so maybe in schools, but also at other institutional levels as well?

Jamal> Great question.

Sierra> Perfect.

Jamal> I could definitely tackle that.

We work with young males ages 6 to 17 who are in fatherless homes.

So we have the plethora of middle school, elementary school and high school students.

But when it comes to that, it comes with the emotional availability.

A lot of our kids want to mask behind the screen or mask behind the computer, but we have to deal with these emotions and emotions are real, and there's no right or wrong emotions.

Emotions are natural.

So, when it comes to that, we have to be able to have that emotional intelligence.

But we understand that brains are still developing all the way up to 25.

But when it comes to that, we want to make sure that we are creating those safe spaces.

Every Wednesday, we have a Zoom call.

We've been doing it since the pandemic, and it's a safe space for our youth to get on the call, and also for our males to get on the call.

And we average about 50 kids every Wednesday for that.

And we've been doing that since the pandemic.

And I think we're, we're out of the pandemic now.

But when that comes, we want to make sure...right.

But we want to make sure we have those safe spaces.

So we have different topics such as, is it okay for a man to cry?

What to do if my father's not here, what to do when I'm feeling hopeless, and the list goes on and on and on.

And you'll be surprised just to hear just the wisdom and just the experience of what's happening with these kids, because like you said earlier, they're being exposed to the social media at an earlier and earlier age.

They can work a phone really quickly.

I have an eight year old that works a phone better than me, but at the same time, we have to be mindful of learning how to have those bumpers and those precautions because everything on the Internet is instant.

We see it.

We could go down our timeline and get completely depressed.

So we have to be mindful as parents, as guardians, as community members, to know about what's happening on social media.

How can we limit screen time and also kind of have those organic conversations.

Let's not just stuff the screen in front of them because someone else is teaching them.

Someone else is saying, "Hey, in thirty seconds, you could be this great person."

And knowing that, it don't take thirty seconds to be a great person.

So we just have to be able to have those comfortable conversations.

Sierra> Thank you.

Zenethia> No, you go ahead.

Marc> Great.

Great question.

I think schools have a real challenge.

You know, again, going back traditionally, where, where, where do we get these morals, these values from our family, from home?

So now we're saying, hey, schools, not only do you need to be able to teach English or science or math or whatever, but you also need to know how to deal with Johnny, who doesn't have his dad at home and is addicted to, you know, social media.

And it's, it's a lot.

We already know teachers are dealing with a lot.

It's a tough task to ask an institution to do something that a family was created to do.

I think we are in a tough spot when we're asking institutions to say, "Hey, Johnny doesn't have daddy anymore, so you need to learn how to rather than just teaching that class, you also need to know that Johnny needs this, this, and this.

So it is a tough task.

And I've seen it here and there.

They have programs for divergent learners and teaching kids in poverty, things like things like that, but it's a tough task.

And I don't know if an institution can truly take it on and deal with it at a mass level.

There are schools that, you know, in certain locations.

There's one in Harlem that did a great job, met a guy named Ron Clark, who has a school in Atlanta that's doing things like that.

But that's a tough task for every school to, to take on.

Zenethia> And not that we are the solution for anything.

But, you know, N.A.M.I, we have a program called "N.A.M.I On Campus", and it was traditionally a college campus program, but we have actually tried moving it into the high schools.

And it's basically, you know, a mental health club where we talk about coping skills like kids don't even some of them don't even know why they're angry and when they're angry, how to, you know, what outlets they have, you know, whether that's music, whether that's adult coloring books, whether that's, you know, art, whatever it is, you know?

And so we are trying to offer these courses, "N.A.M.I On Campus" to all these schools so that, you know, kids can learn about coping skills, so they can learn about anger management, so they can learn about, "Why am I anxious?

", you know, "What do I do with my anxiety?"

And, you know, with N.A.M.I, everything we do is free.

So if you have a school... (laughter) in mind, high school in mind, we would love to come out and establish a "N.A.M.I On Campus" so that, you know, kids can be introduced to things that can help them, you know, get past those, the anger, get past the anxiety, get past the depression because kids these days are depressed.

Now, do they have something to be depressed about?

Maybe not, but they still are, you know, and I mean, I've had people ask me, you know, "What do you have to be depressed about?"

Probably nothing.

But I'm still depressed, you know, and so there's, there's no, there's no ingratitude.

I'm not, it's not, that I'm not grateful for what I have.

It's just that right now, today, I'm having a tough time getting out of bed.

And we have to address it.

And we can't just dismiss it.

And our kids are going through the exact same thing.

Sierra> Zenethia, Thank you so much for that.

And in a moment, we are going to actually go through our panel, and you all are going to be able to share where folks can get in touch with you and where they can find additional resources.

But before we close tonight, I just want to ask, we've talked about the problems.

What are the solutions?

How do we move forward?

Zenethia> I don't know what they're going to say Sierra> Let's let them say something first.

Look at the men.

Zenethia> But I, you know, but going back to what you said, I think one of the places to start is not for it to be an us against them situation.

Let's get together and have the conversation together.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm not bashing you.

I'm just trying to show you how best to show up for me, you know?

And I want you to receive that and not receive it as a criticism, but receive it as a way for us to come together and be the best couple we can possibly be.

Sierra> Absolutely.

Jamal> I would say the solution is in this room.

Solution is in these seats right here.

We all have experience in life, but we need to do it together.

But also for my men that's watching this, we see you, we love you, we understand, and we care about you.

You're not alone.

Zenethia> Absolutely.

Marc Himes> Just with what Jamal said everything is about community.

You have to have a community to restore families, a community to restore men in this case.

And I think we need to have welcoming spaces for men to express themselves, to talk about their challenges and then have system.

And I deal.

I guess my thing is, I deal a lot with systems.

So you have systems that are against men.

Those systems need to start reshaping and changing and not just point the finger.

"You should be doing this.

You should be doing that."

I'm not doing this, because I haven't seen it done before.

So I think even from a systematic level, we need to provide resources to help men deal with their situations, get in a better place so they can fulfill the roles that they're expected to have.

Sierra> And Marc, can you elaborate on those systems and maybe the dialog that needs to happen?

Because you mentioned people saying you, you, you, if you keep saying you, you, you, seems very defensive.

You get very defensive.

So show us about those.

Marc> Sure.

So again, I work with fatherhood programs.

And so one of the things, we deal with court systems and legal things.

So for example, if you have a situation where a father, a father and a mother have a child, the mother automatically gets the rights.

So we deal a lot with men that are paying child support, but don't even have right to see their child.

We are dealing with again, child support system where men are supposed to take care of things and, and if they don't, they're put in jail in some cases.

So we have systems in place.

And then I mentioned from a, from a resource example, if I, you know, especially a lot of single parent homes get access to resources.

And they're almost discouraging me from being active and involved with my family.

So there's several I won't get too specific.

I want to keep my job and not anger anybody.

Zenethia> That's the next episode.

Sierra> Next episode.

We need a part two.

Marc> But.

But we've kind of started to establish a society to say, look, this guy may not be there.

So now here's how we're going to do things.

And so now he feels excluded.

So how do we make him feel included, but also let him take care of his responsibility?

Sierra> Absolutely.

I do want to try to squeeze one thing in, because I feel like we touched it.

We brushed it, but we didn't get into it.

Masculinity.

I feel like the goalposts for masculinity and what it means is constantly being shifted.

Can we, can anybody, anybody want to touch it?

Can we touch it?

Jamal> Yeah, you can definitely touch it really quickly.

I would just say it all boils down to that inner man, that little child, you could be 30 years old, but you could still be operating in that little child mindset.

So therefore, that hurt.

We have to let it go.

Being a man, it doesn't matter about how much money you make, it's about what's in your heart.

So, as men, we have to break down those roles or break down those roles of just saying, hey, I'm here, I'm the man.

I'm standing up for everything.

But we have to be mindful of what's in our heart.

How can we truly make this work?

And like I said, just that hurt child, that hurt little boy, that hurt syndrome.

We have to continue to have that community, that safe space to kind of say, "Hey, you don't have to be a part of this club."

"You don't have to be a part of this manhood thing" "because we're all just trying to make things better."

Sierra> Enough said.

Marc.

Marc> I think, I think men have felt pressured to, to do certain things, but that certain thing has changed.

So we have to adjust to the change.

So it's about meeting the needs.

So if it's not about money and cars, it's about nurturing and taking care of your wife or whatever that is.

I think masculinity needs to say we were created to meet needs.

And so the needs are changing.

I'm not working in the oil, you know, on an oil rig anymore, so I, might have to change the type of job I take on.

I might have to change my role within the family.

I might have to change how I treat my significant other.

And I think masculinity, as you said is shifting.

So we need to embrace the shift and stop saying, "Oh, I'm still going to do this", even though society doesn't demand it anymore.

Sierra> Right.

And now we're going to get to some of our resources.

So I want to make sure that we have an opportunity for you all to share resources from the organizations that you are connected to.

So, Dr.

Campbell, if we can start with you.

Dr.

Campbell> Yes.

So, the University of South Carolina, I'm sure everybody's familiar with it.

We have lots of resources there.

A lot of our faculty are doing a lot of this important work, too, that we're talking about and looking at.

So we have some folks in the sociology who are doing a lot of work, research and teaching around family dynamics Again, I'm in the department of Women's and Gender Studies there at the University of South Carolina.

So please feel free to reach out my email.

I'm happy to, to answer any questions that you might have.

Email is the best way to, to get in touch with me, but you can just find it on the website.

If you go to sc.edu, you can look up and, and look at women's and gender studies and you'll see the contact information there.

Sierra> Thank you Dr.

Campbell and Jamal, really quickly we're getting ready to wrap.

So just let us know where people can find you to get more information.

And of course we do have this on SCETV.org Jamal> For more information for Big Homie Lil Homie mentoring, just go to bighomielilhomie.org.

Zenethia> And for all of our programs, you can go to Namicanhelp.org, n-a-m-i-c-a-n-h-e-l-p.org.

Marc> For the South Carolina Center for Fathers and Families, father 365.com.

Sierra> Awesome, and I want to thank all of you for being here today and for sharing your expertise and your insight, and also, to our audience, as well.

And I want to thank you all for joining us online.

If you have any questions or if you like to contact any of the organizations, please be sure to visit our website at scetv.org.

And again, thank you so much.

Good night.

Continue to have these conversations at home.

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