>>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

A FOREIGN POLICY HAWK AND STAUNCH ADVOCATE FOR THE WAR WITH IRAN.

LINDSEY GRAHAM'S DEATH IS SENDING SHOCK WAVES ACROSS WASHINGTON AS THE CEASEFIRE WITH IRAN FALLS APART.

WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE GOP.

> >> THEN -- >> THE ISRAELI ARMY SHOULD BE HERE AND KICKING THEM OUT.

IT'S ILLEGAL TO BE THERE.

>> A FATHER'S QUEST FOR CLOSURE.

ONE YEAR ON FROM THE KILLING OF A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN IN THE WEST BANK, THE IMPUNITY THAT ISRAELI SETTLERS HAVE.

> >> IS READING ENDING?

YOUNGER READERS SCROLL MORE.

WHAT DOES A POST LITERATE WORLD LOOK LIKE.

> >> THEN -- >> THESE ARE PREVENTIBLE DEATHS.

>> TORN APART BY GUN VIOLENCE AND DOMESTIC ABUSE.

THIS PREVENTION ADVOCATE SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE FAMILY'S TRAGEDY AND HOW GUN LAWS CAN PROTECT WOMEN FROM VIOLENT PARTNERS.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

A SUDDEN DEATH SETTING OFF A SCRAMBLE IN THE U. S. SENATE.

SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, A FOREIGN POLICY HAWK AND EMBLEMATIC FIGURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PASSED AWAY AT THE AGE OF 71.

ONCE A SCATHING TRUMP CRITIC, HE TURNED INTO ONE OF HIS STRONGEST ALLIES AND WAS ONE OF THE STRONGEST VOICES FOR THE WAR WITH IRAN.

>> HE WAS A GREAT POLITICIAN, A NATURAL.

GOT ALONG WITH EVERYBODY.

NO BETTER ADVOCATE.

A FANTASTIC ADVOCATE IN THE SENATE.

>> A DEFT POLITICIAN, HE FTEN CROSSED PARTY LINES.

LIKE FOR OIL LAST WEEK.

BUT NO SUCH THING IS HAPPENING FOR IRAN AND PUSHING PRESIDENT TRUMP INTO A CORNER.

TRAFFIC THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS GRINDING TO A HALT, OIL PRICES ARE RISING AND THE CEASEFIRE IS CRUMBLING.

OUR NEXT GUEST USED TO WORK ALONGSIDE SENATOR GRAHAM WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS.

JEFF BLAKE, MR.

AMBASSADOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PASSING OF YOUR LONGTIME COLLEAGUE.

I KNOW HE WAS A FRIEND AS WELL.

YOU TOLD NPR THAT YOUR FRIENDSHIP ACTUALLY BEGAN WITH LOCKERS SIDE BY SIDE IN THE HOUSE GYM AND THAT GRAHAM WITH NO FAMILY IN WASHINGTON QUOTE WAS ALWAYS LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE DINNER WITH.

WHO WAS LINDSEY GRAHAM WHEN THE CAMERAS WERE OFF?

>> WELL, HE WAS THE FUNNIEST SENATOR BY FAR.

AND HE WAS A JOY TO BE WITH.

HE DIDN'T LIKE TO BE ALONE.

HE LIKED TO BE WITH PEOPLE.

WE SPENT MANY EVENINGS TOGETHER WHEN HE WAS IN THE SENATE, HE WOULD GIVE A CALL, WHAT ARE YOU DOING, IF HE DIDN'T HAVE PLANS, HE WANTED TO BE WITH PEOPLE.

THAT'S LINDSEY.

BUT LINDSEY IS AN OLD POLITICIAN IN THE SENSE OF AN INSTITUTIONALIST.

DURKSON ONCE SAID I HAD UNBENDING PRINCIPLES, THE FIRST PRINCIPLE IS TO BE FLEXIBLE.

THAT PERSONIFIES LINDSEY, WHY HE WAS AN EFFECTIVE LEGISLATOR.

>> WHAT WAS THE LAST TIME THE TWO OF YOU SPOKE?

>> A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

IT WAS A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

I HAD DEALT WITH LINDSEY A LOT AS AMBASSADOR TO TURKIYE, PARTICULARLY THE EFFORT TO GET SWEDEN INTO NATO.

THERE WERE THINGS THAT TURKIYE WANTED THE U. S. CONGRESS TO DO AND LINDSEY WAS VERY EFFECTIVE IN BRINGING THAT ABOUT.

SO WE HAD A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS WHILE HE WAS IN D. C. AND I WAS IN TURKIYE, AND WE'VE TALKED A FEW TIMES SINCE.

>> HE WAS EFFECTIVE, OBJECTIVELY, IN TRYING TO PERSUADE THE PRESIDENT TO TRY TO KEEP THE NATO ALLIANCE TOGETHER WITH THE U. S. LEADING THE WAY.

THE MOST RECENT NATO SUMMIT LAST WEEK HIGHLIGHTED THAT PUSH FROM LINDSEY GRAHAM.

THE PRESIDENT OVER THE WEEKEND SPEAKING TO A NUMBER OF NETWORKS, INCLUDING CNN, TALKING AND MOURNING THE PASSING OF HIS FRIEND, NOTED SOME OF HIS BRIGHTEST MOMENTS IN HIS VIEW.

ONE OF THEM WAS WHEN HE SAID THAT THE SENATOR EXCORIATED YOU IN THE BRETT CAVANAGH HEARINGS, PUSHING YOU AND YOU SAID THAT SAME NIGHT HE TOLD YOU YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.

TELL US MORE ABOUT WHAT THAT STORY SAYS ABOUT WHO LINDSEY GRAHAM WAS.

>> THAT WAS LINDSEY, HE'S ADAPTABLE.

HE WAS VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO PROLONGING THE INVESTIGATION OR LAUNCHING AN FBI INVESTIGATION AND I FELT STRONGLY WE NEEDED TO DO THAT.

HE DID GO AFTER ME IN THE COMMIT ROOM AND IN THE ANTEROOM EVEN LOUDER.

SAYING YOU CAN'T DO THIS.

BUT I DID, AND WITHIN A COUPLE OF HOURS HE WAS WITH ME SAYING THAT WAS THE BEST THING EVER.

LET'S HAVE DINNER.

AND WE DID.

THAT WAS LINDSEY.

HE ADAPTED.

HE ADAPTED TO THE TRUMP ERA, AND HE FELT HE COULD INFLUENCE THE PRESIDENT.

AS YOU MENTIONED IN PARTICULAR IN TERMS OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP ABROAD.

LINDSEY HAS HAD A TREMENDOUS EFFECT I THINK IN KEEPING NATO ALLIANCE TOGETHER, MAKING SURE THAT AMERICAN LEADERSHIP GOES ON IN EUROPE.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> THAT ADAPTATION THAT YOU NOTED, HE WAS EMBLEMATIC OF THE ARC WE SAW WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND HOW INITIALLY THERE HAD BEEN FIERCE CRITICISM OF DONALD TRUMP WHEN HE WENT DOWN THE ESCALATOR IN 2015 ANNOUNCING HIS BID FOR THE PRESIDENCY TO TODAY.

IN 2015, LINDSEY GRAHAM SAID THE ANSWER TO MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN WAS TO TELL DONALD TRUMP TO GO TO HELL.

HE'S CHANGED QUITE A BIT SINCE THEN.

LISTEN TO THE JOKE HE MADE JUST LAST MONTH ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.

>> I WANT TO START WITH A BUNCH OF THANK YOUS.

THANK THE BIG GUY, GOD, TRUMP COMES LATER.

PERFECT PRESIDENT YOU'RE NOT FAR BEHIND GOD BUT WE'RE GOING TO START WITH HIM.

>> THAT WAS LINDSEY GRAHAM CELEBRATING HIS PRIMARY WIN JUST LAST MONTH FOR A FIFTH TERM.

SEEKING THE SENATE POSITION IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

JONATHAN MARTIN OF POLITICO WRITES THAT WAS AN EXAMPLE OF A CYNICAL CAPITULATION, BUT MAYBE IT WAS WORTH IT.

THAT EMBRACE OF DONALD TRUMP WHILE STILL MAINTAINING HIS HAWKISH SUPPORT OF ALLIANCES, FIGHTING AGAINST RUSSIA WITH SANCTIONS AND KEEPING THE U. S. WITH NATO, THAT THAT WORKED.

DO YOU BELIEVE THIS CAPITULATION, IF THAT'S WHAT IT WAS, WAS WORTH IT ULTIMATELY?

>> I COULDN'T DO IT.

I'M NOT A GOOD ENOUGH POLITICIAN APPARENTLY.

BUT I WAS ALWAYS GLAD THAT LINDSEY WAS THERE.

I ALWAYS KNEW THAT HE BELIEVED IN STRONG AMERICAN LEADERSHIP, IN OUR ALLIANCES, AND THAT HE WAS INFLUENCING THE PRESIDENT.

HE DID.

SO I CAN'T SPEAK TO WHETHER IT'S CAPITULATION OR NOT, JUST GLAD HE WAS THERE AS LONG AS HE WAS.

>> LINDSEY GRAHAM, TO HIS CREDIT I GUESS, WAS VERY TRANSPARENT WHEN ASKED WHY THE CHANGE, WHY WAS HE CONSTANTLY EMBRACING THE PRESIDENT, WHY WAS SUCH AN ARDENT CRITIC BECOME SUCH A SUPPORTER.

HE SAID IT CAME DOWN TO BEING RELEVANT.

DONALD TRUMP CALLED HIM, THEY SPOKE FREQUENTLY, EVEN THE HOURS APPARENTLY BEFORE HIS PASSING.

THAT HE PLAYED GOLF WITH HIM AND MADE HIM FEEL IMPORTANT TO BE IN THE ROOM.

YOU NOTED YOU'RE DIFFERENT.

WE RECALL YOUR SPEECH ON THE SENATE FLOOR IN 2017 WHEN YOU SAID YOU WOULD INTO THE SEEK ANOTHER TERM.

YOU SAID YOU WOULD NOT BE COMPLICIT AND THAT ULTIMATELY COST YOUR CAREER.

WATCHING HOW GRAHAM'S STORY HAS ENDED, DO YOU EVER WONDER BACK ABOUT YOUR OWN CHOICE?

>> NOT AT ALL, NOT FOR A MINUTE.

I HAD TO FACE MY FAMILY.

AND I HAD, YOU KNOW, SAID I DIDN'T AGREE WITH THE PRESIDENT'S POLICIES AND COULDN'T CONDONE HIS BEHAVIOR.

FOR ME TO FLIP ON A DIME AND SAY HEY, THE POLICIES I DISAGREED WITH, THEY'RE GROWING ON ME, OR THE PRESIDENT'S BEHAVIOR, I KIND OF LIKE IT NOW --I JUST COULDN'T DO IT.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF WAYS TO INFLUENCE.

I DON'T PRETEND FOR A MINUTE I CAN HAVE AS MUCH INFLUENCE OUTSIDE OF THE SENATE, BUT I JUST COULDN'T TURN ON A DIME AND DO THAT.

I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE AT IT.

AND I CERTAINLY WOULDN'T HAVE SLEPT WELL.

>> WE DO KNOW THAT LINDSEY GRAHAM WAS VERY PUBLIC IN SUPPORTING PRESIDENT TRUMP, SOME SAY EVEN CONVINCING PRESIDENT TRUMP TO STRIKE IRAN, TO TAKE OUT THE AYATOLLAH, THAT HAD BEEN ONE OF HIS MOST PRESSING POLICIES HE HAD BEEN FOCUSED ON, BRINGING DOWN THE IRANIAN REGIME, EVEN IF THAT MEANT A KINETIC WAR.

HE SPOKE AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE WITH CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR JUST TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THAT.

>> HERE'S THE DAY AFTER I WORRY MOST ABOUT.

THE DAY AFTER WE BLINKED.

AFTER WE MADE PROMISES WE DIDN'T KEEP, ASSURANCES THAT FELL SHORT.

THAT'S GENERATIONAL DAMAGE.

HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, THEY DON'T GO AWAY, THEY COME BACK STRONGER.

ARABS GO BACK IN THEIR CORNER AND PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN PROTESTING WILL BE SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYED.

>> THE REGIME HAS NOT CHANGED, THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ REMAINS CLOSED, THE PRESIDENT HAS THREATENED TO REINSTITUTE THE BLOCKADE AND CHARGE A TOLL FOR SHIPS PASSING, THE CEASEFIRE IS ALL BUT DEAD.

WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW, DO YOU THINK THAT LINDSEY GRAHAM WAS RIGHT IN TRYING TO PERSUADE THE PRESIDENT TO TAKE THESE ACTIONS?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET IN THE BACK ROOMS TO KNOW WHO HAD AN INFLUENCE, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, THE WAY THE PRESIDENT WAGED THIS WAR.

I THINK THERE ARE OTHER WAYS WE COULD HAVE GONE ABOUT IT.

FACT WE'RE IN THE POSITION WE'RE IN TODAY SPEAKS TO THAT.

I DON'T KNOW, I WASN'T IN THE ROOMS, TO SEE WHO INFLUENCED WHOM ON THAT.

BUT THIS WAS THE WRONG CHOICE BY THE PRESIDENT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW ANYONE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE CAN LOOK AT THE SITUATION AND THINK WE'RE IN A BETTER PLACE NOW FOR WHAT HAS GONE ON.

THIS IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO GET OUT OF.

KEEPING THE POSITION OF THE U. S. STRENGTHENED AND INTACT, IT'S REALLY GOING TO BE TOUGH.

>> WHAT DO YOU PRESCRIBE NOW?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES, IF PRESIDENT TRUMP --I DON'T IMAGINE HE WOULD DO THIS --IF HE PICKED UP THE PHONE AND GAVE YOU A CALL TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS GIVEN WHERE THINGS STAND WHAT SHOULD THE U. S. DO?

>> OBVIOUSLY THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE BUT WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD HAND.

HE TALKED ABOUT UKRAINE AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NOT HAVING A GOOD HAND, NOT HAVING ANY CARDS.

THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE ARE WITH REGARD TO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IT'S SO EASY FOR IRAN TO KEEP THAT CLOSED.

SO I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW WE DO IT WITHOUT KINETIC ACTION GOING FORWARD.

BUT THAT HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE SHELVED TRUE DIPLOMACY.

I DON'T SEE ANY REAL DIPLOMATS THERE WHO CAN ACTUALLY PUT AN MOU TOGETHER THAT MEANS SOMETHING.

OR CAN SEE BEYOND AN MOU.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE REALLY HURTING RIGHT NOW.

WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE.

THE PRESIDENT, THE PEOPLE HE'S RELYING ON, I DON'T THINK HAVE DONE AN ADEQUATE JOB.

>> LINDSEY GRAHAM'S LAST TRIP TO KYIV WAS JUST LAST WEEK, FRIDAY, HIS TENTH SINCE THE LARGER SCALE INVASION OF FEBRUARY '22.

HE WAS ON THE CUSP OF A SANCTIONS DEAL THAT PERHAPS COULD HAVE CHANGED PUTIN'S CALCULUS.

SENATE MAJORITY LEADER THUNE SAID HE THINKS THAT PASSING THE RUSSIAN SANCTIONS PACKAGE WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE LEGACY FOR LINDSEY GRAHAM.

DO YOU THINK THERE'S ENOUGH SUPPORT IN THE SENATE RIGHT NOW?

DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT WOULD SIGN IT?

>> THERE'S NUMERICAL SUPPORT.

LAST COUNT WAS 85 COSPONSORS, SO YES.

THE QUESTION IS, WILL REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE --IN THE HOUSE ACTUALLY OVERRIDE THE PRESIDENT IF HE THREATENS A VETO.

BUT THIS SPEAKS TO LINDSEY GRAHAM'S EFFECTIVENESS.

WORKED WITH RICHARD BLUMENTHAL AND OTHERS, PUSHED THIS HARD.

I HOPE THEY MOVE FORWARD WITH IT AND THE PRESIDENT WILL SIGN IT.

IF HE DOESN'T, I WOULD HOPE THE CONGRESS WOULD SIMPLY OVERRIDE.

THAT RARELY HAPPENS THESE DAYS.

PRESIDENTS SEE THE GROUND SHIFTING AND COMPLY.

I SUPPOSE HE WOULD HERE.

BUT THAT WOULD BE A GOOD TRIBUTE TO LINDSEY GRAHAM.

UKRAINE WOULD NOT BE IN THE STRONG POSITION IT IS TODAY WITHOUT LINDSEY GRAHAM.

HE HAS BEEN DOGGED IN THIS.

YOU MENTIONED TEN VISITS SINCE THE INVASION IN 2022, THAT'S A LOT OF COMMITMENT.

>> WHAT HAPPENS TO UKRAINE WITHOUT LINDSEY GRAHAM?

>> WELL, GRATEFULLY EUROPE HAS STEPPED UP.

LINDSEY'S HELP WAS REALLY NEEDED TO HELP EUROPE STEP UP.

I THINK THAT WE'RE BEYOND THE TIME THAT UKRAINE IS IN THE DANGER THEY WERE BEFORE.

THAT'S MUCH OWED TO LINDSEY GRAHAM.

STILL IT WOULD HELP IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD BE COMMITTED AND ACTUALLY CROSS PRESIDENT PUTIN HERE AND MOVE FORWARD AND USE THE POSITION THAT UKRAINE IS IN TO OUR ADVANTAGE IN NEGOTIATIONS.

BUT THE PRESIDENT HASN'T SEEMED WILLING TO DO THAT YET.

I HOPE HE CHANGES HIS MIND.

>> JEFF FLAKE, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE APPRECIATE THE TIME AND THANKS FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

CONDOLENCES FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR FRIEND.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> IT'S BEEN ONE YEAR SINCE THE DEATH OF PALESTINIAN AMERICAN KILLED BY ISRAELI SETTLERS WHILE VISITING RELATIVES.

HIS FATHER HAS RETURNED TO THE SITE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A YEAR.

BUT HIS JOURNEY QUICKLY TURNED DANGEROUS AS ARMED ISRAELI SETTLERS ATTACKED HIS CONVOY, FACING FEW CONSEQUENCES.

HERE'S A REPORT FROM THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

>> Reporter: HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO REACH THIS LAND IN OVER A YEAR.

THIS IS THE HILLSIDE WHERE HIS SON, SAIF, AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, WAS KILLED.

LOOKS LIKE IT'S DOWN HERE.

>> BEATEN TO DEATH BY ISRAELI SETTLERS A YEAR AGO.

SINCE THEN THEY'VE ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED THE AREA, PREVENTING THE FATHER FROM GETTING THE CLOSURE HE SEEKS.

>> USUALLY THEY COME THAT WAY.

>> Reporter: WE'RE IN AN ARMORED VEHICLE WITH BULLETPROOF VESTS BECAUSE OF HOW VIOLENT THE SETTLERS HAVE BEEN.

WE MADE IT.

WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE HERE FINALLY?

>> HONESTLY, I'M IMAGINING -- JUST IMAGINING HIM, YOU KNOW.

A LOT IN MY HEAD RIGHT NOW.

WHAT HE WENT THROUGH AT THAT MOMENT.

>> Reporter: TAKE A MOMENT.

BUT THIS SOLEMN, SACRED MOMENT WON'T LAST.

WITHIN SECONDS WE SPOT A CAR SPEEDS TOWARDS US.

WE START TO LEAVE BUT AS WE DRIVE AWAY, FOUR SETTLERS HAVE SET UP A ROAD BLOCK.

ARMED WITH CLUBS AND BLOCKS THEY TRY TO BLOCK OUR WAY.

FIRST WITH THEIR BODIES, AND THEN --LOOKS LIKE HE'S TRYING TO SLASH OUR TIRES.

>> HE'S GOT A KNIFE.

>> OH, MY GOD!

>> A GROUP OF INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS AND ACTIVISTS ARE IN THE CAR BEHIND US.

>> MOVE, MOVE [ BLEEP ] !

>> BUT THEIR VEHICLE ISN'T ARMORED.

[ SCREAMING ] >> WITHOUT AN ARMORED CAR OR BULLETPROOF VEST, HOW DO I GET TO MY LAND?

THE ISRAELI ARMY RIGHT NOW SHOULD BE HERE KICKING THEM OUT.

IT'S ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO BE THERE.

IT'S FRUSTRATING.

YOU'RE SO ANGRY, YOU CAN'T DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

IT JUST KILLS YOU FROM INSIDE.

>> Reporter: THE SETTLERS AREN'T DONE, MORE ARRIVE, BLOCKING ANOTHER ROAD BEFORE CHASING US AND ATTACKING US AGAIN.

THEY'RE TRYING TO STOP OUR CAR AGAIN.

HITTING US.

WE FINALLY MAKE IT BACK TO SAFETY WHERE I GET ON THE PHONE WITH THE ISRAELI MILITARY, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURITY IN THIS AREA.

BUT SETTLERS HAVE ALSO CALLED THE MILITARY AND THESE SOLDIERS ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN HARASSING US, REFUSING TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST THE SETTLERS.

MINUTES LATER, THE COMMANDER OF A DIFFERENT BATTALION ARRIVES.

SENDS HIS SOLDIERS AFTER THE SETTLERS, DETAINING THEM UNTIL THE POLICE ARRIVE.

THE ISRAEL POLICE SAID THEY ARRESTED FOUR SUSPECTS AND SEIZED CLUBS AND A KNIFE.

THEY VOWED TO QUOTE, BRING THEM TO JUSTICE ACCORDINGLY.

A FULL YEAR LATER, HE'S STILL WAITING FOR HIS SON'S KILLERS TO BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

>> NO ONE HAS BEEN ARRESTED, NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> Reporter: SAIF WAS WEEKS SHY OF HIS 21st BIRTHDAY WHEN HE WAS KILLED.

A FLORIDA NATIVE VISITING HIS FAMILY IN THE WEST BANK.

U. S. AMBASSADOR MIKE HUCKABEE CONDEMNED THE KILLING AT THE TIME.

I REACHED OUT TO THE U. S. EMBASSY, THEY SAID THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS NO HIGHER PRIORITY THAN THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF AMERICANS.

DUE TO PRIVACY CONSIDERATIONS, WE HAVE NO FURTHER INFORMATION TO PROVIDE AT THIS TIME.

>> I FEEL IF THAT WAS TRUE, THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

AT LEAST OPEN AN INVESTIGATION.

IF ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WAS KILLED BY A MOB OF EXTREMISTS, TERRORISTS, WHAT KIND OF OUTRAGE WOULD THERE BE?

HOW DISAPPOINTED WOULD HE BE RIGHT NOW HIS U. S. PASSPORT DID NOTHING FOR HIM?

>> Reporter: SAIF BELIEVED IN THAT BLUE PASSPORT.

>> BLUE IS BLUE.

>> Reporter: BUT HIS FAMILY IS STILL WAITING FOR IT TO MEAN SOMETHING, ANYTHING, IN THEIR PURSUIT OF JUSTICE.

>> JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTING FROM THE WEST BANK.

> >> ARE WE WITNESSING THE DEATH OF READING?

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS SO.

WE ENDLESSLY SCROLL THROUGH TIKTOK, YOUTUBE, INSTAGRAM AND WE'RE SEEING ATTENTION SPANS DECLINING.

FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE ARE REACHING FOR A BOOK.

IN A NEW COVER STORY FOR "THE ATLANTIC," ARGUES A POST LITERATURE ERA.

IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL CHALLENGE WITH COLLEGE STUDENTS UNABLE TO EASILY COMPREHEND A TEXT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN STANDARD READING IN YEARS GONE BY.

ROSE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

DON'T TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS, BUT THIS IS AN UTTERLY DEPRESSING READ.

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

SO I'M GLAD WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

THE HEADLINE ITSELF IS A BOLD DECLARATION --THE AGE OF READING IS OVER, NOT DECLINING, BUT OVER.

AS NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION, AMERICANS, ONE COULD ARGUE, ELECTRONIC, BOOKSTORES, LIBRARY, ACCESS TO SO MANY OPTIONS AND BOOKS, YET WE'RE READING LESS.

HOW DID YOU COME TO THIS CONCLUSION?

>> YES, IT IS CLEAR FROM THE DATA AMERICANS ARE READING MUCH LESS THAN WE USED TO.

THE SHARE OF AMERICANS THAT READ A BOOK OR ARTICLE IF HE GIVEN DAY DECLINED 40%.

2022, FEWER THAN HALF OF ALL AMERICANS READ A BOOK OF ANY KIND.

GAMBLING IS A MORE POPULAR LEISURE ACTIVITY THAN READING IS.

I ARGUE IN THE PIECE THIS DATA REPRESENTS A BROAD SHIFT IN SOCIETY.

WHEN READING AND WRITING FIRST APPEARS 6,000 YEARS AGO, IT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED THE WAY PEOPLE THOUGHT, THE WAY POLITICS AND CULTURE WORKED.

AND WE'RE NOW SEEING THAT SHIFT AGAIN AS READING GOES AWAY.

SHIFTS IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, HOW WE ELECT REPRESENTATIVES, OUR VALUES.

IT'S ALL AROUND US.

>> YOU HAVE STRIKING STATISTICS.

FEWER THAN HALF OF AMERICAN ADULTS HAVE READ A SINGLE BOOK IN 2022.

DAILY READING FOR PLEASURE HAS HALVED SINCE 2004.

AND LAST YEAR AS YOU NOTED, MORE AMERICANS PLACED A BET THAN READ A BOOK.

YOU'RE CAREFUL TO SAY AMERICAN ISN'T ILLITERATE BUT POST LITERATE.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS.

>> YES.

EXACTLY.

SO PEOPLE MIGHT BE READING MORE WORDS THAN EVER BEFORE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT EMAILS, TEXT MESSAGES, SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS.

IT'S NOT THAT PEOPLE ARE ILLITERATE OR CAN'T READ WORDS OR A SENTENCE.

WHAT'S CHANGING IS OUR ABILITY TO ACTUALLY PERSIST THROUGH A COMPLEX WORK.

THAT'S WHAT I MEANT BY POST LITERATE.

READING IS NO LONGER THE PRIMARY WAY THAT PEOPLE ACQUIRE INFORMATION OR TRANSMIT CULTURE, OR NEWS OR ENTERTAINMENT.

THAT'S WHAT I MEANT.

>> WE'RE SEEING AN ACTUAL CHANGE IN OUR BRAIN FUNCTION AS WELL AS A RESULT OF THIS.

YOU CITE UCLA NEUROSCIENTIST WOLFE WHO ARGUES PEOPLE ARE NOT JUST FORGETTING HOW TO DECODE WORDS BUT LOSING SYNTHESIS AND COMPREHENSION.

>> ONE OF THE BEDROCK PRINCIPLES IN NEUROSCIENCE IS PEOPLE'S BRAINS MASTER WHAT THEY PRACTICE.

IF WE'RE NOT READING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A LOT LESS BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE TO AID IN COMPREHENSION, A LOT LESS ACCUSTOMED TO PERSISTING THROUGH A CHALLENGING WORK, MUCH MORE ACCUSTOMED TO SWITCHING OUR ATTENTION.

AND WE'RE ALSO NOT GOING TO REALLY DEVELOP SKILLS OF COMPLEX SYNTHESIS AND ANALYSIS.

THAT SHOWS UP IN TESTS.

WE KNOW THAT AMERICAN ADULTS' ABILITY TO DECODE LOGIC PUZZLES, ANALYZE PATTERNS, DO COMPLEX REASONING HAS DECLINED THE PAST TWO DECADES.

>> YOU MENTIONED THIS HAS IMPACTED MANY FACETS THROUGHOUT SOCIETY, POLITICS AS WELL.

YOU CALLED TRUMP OUR FIRST POST LITERATE PRESIDENT AND REFERENCED THE JUVENILE SIGNATURE NICKNAMES HE HAD AS HE WAS CAMPAIGNING, ESPECIALLY IN 2015 FOR PRESIDENT.

SLEEPY JOE, LITTLE MARCO, CROOKED HILLARY.

YOU SAY THEY'RE NOT JUST INSULTS, IT'S HOW LEADERS WERE ACTING AND COMMUNICATED BEFORE THE WRITTEN WORD.

SOMETHING SHORT, CATCHY, MEMORABLE.

>> YEAH.

TRUMP, AS I SAID, THE FIRST POST LITERATE PRESIDENT.

HE RETRIEVES A LOT OF THE CONVENTIONS OF PRELITERATE ERAS, USES THE EPITHETS YOU WERE MENTIONING LIKE SLEEPY JOE.

ALMOST A CALL BACK TO HOMER, THE REPETITION AIDS IN REMEMBERING, THEY'RE EASY TO REPEAT.

TRUMP ALSO SPEAKS WITH A LOT OF EMOTIONAL RESONANCE WHICH IS EASIER THAN DISPASSIONATE INFORMATION TO REMEMBER.

HE ALSO GOES FULL STEAM AHEAD AND CONTRADICTS HIMSELF, SIMILAR TO THE WAY PEOPLE COMMUNICATED IN PRELITERATE CULTURES WHERE THERE'S NO RECORD OF WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE.

HE'S FIGURED OUT HOW TO SEIZE ON A LOT OF THE CONVENTIONS OF THE POST LITERATE AGE AND BE A REALLY SUCCESSFUL POLITICIAN IN THIS MOMENT.

>> BUT YOU ALSO POINT OUT IT'S NOT JUST TRUMP'S STORY, DAVID, THE ARCHITECT OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S CAMPAIGN, HE'S ARGUING THAT CANDIDATES, IF THEY CAN'T FIT A TEN-SECOND MESSAGE IN INSTAGRAM OR TIKTOK, THEY NEED TO GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

YOU CALL IT A DISASTER FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT.

WHY?

IT'S MEMORABLE AND CATCHY AND STANDS OUT TO PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR.

>> EXACTLY.

POLITICIANS ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL NOW IF THEY SIMPLIFY THINGS, ARE VERY EMOTIONAL MESSAGE, A POPULIST MESSAGE AND SEEM OF THE PEOPLE.

THAT'S A REALLY GOOD WAY TO GET ELECTED.

10 OR 15 SECONDS IN A VIDEO TO GRAB PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

BUT FOR GOVERNANCE, POLICY ISSUES ARE OFTEN COMPLEX.

IF YOU ONLY HAVE 10 TO 15 SECONDS, IT'S DIFFICULT TO PRESENT SOMETHING.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE POST LITERATE POLITICS, THE POLITICIANS SUCCESSFUL AT GETTING ELECTED ARE THE ONES ABLE TO GRAB ATTENTION AND SEEM AUTHENTIC AND ENTERTAINING.

BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR IT'S GOING TO BE A GOOD THING FOR INFORMED SELF-GOVERNANCE.

>> AND NOT JUST FOR READING.

WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS AND CONCERN ABOUT A WANING ATTENTION SPAN.

PARTICULARLY IN YOUNGER GENERATIONS.

YOU CITE A PEDIATRIC RESEARCHER WHO COMPARES SCROLLING TIKTOK TO A LAB RAT PUSHING A BUTTON FOR COCAINE.

AND OUR ATTENTION SPANS FELL FROM 2 1/2 MINUTES IN 2004 TO 47 SECONDS TODAY.

THAT'S STUNNING.

ARE THE EXPERTS ABLE TO ANSWER WHETHER THIS IS REVERSIBLE?

>> SO IT DOES SEEM IT IS REVERSIBLE.

SAME THING I WAS MENTIONING EARLIER, PEOPLE'S BRAINS GET GOOD AT WHAT THEY PRACTICE.

IF WE STARTED PRACTICING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, STARTED READING AGAIN, THE BRAINS WOULD GET MORE BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE, BE MORE ACCUSTOMED TO FOCUSING FOR A LENGTHY PERIOD OF TIME.

NOTHING IS PERMANENT BUT WE'RE SEEING CONVINCING CHANGES.

>> THE MOST ALARMING PART TO ME IN THIS PIECE OF YOURS IS THE FACT THAT --I DON'T WANT TO PUT ALL THE BURDEN AND RESPONSIBILITY ON TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS, BUT THIS IS WHERE MANY FAMILIES ARE EXPECTING THEIR CHILDREN WILL BE INTRODUCED TO LEARNING HOW TO READ AND A PASSION FOR READING.

YOU CITE THAT TEACHERS ON AVERAGE ARE ASSIGNING FEWER BOOKS EACH YEAR, SOMETIMES THREE, LESS THAN FOUR.

I REMEMBER READING A BOOK ONCE A MONTH GOING TO PUBLIC SCHOOL GROWING UP.

WHAT HAS CHANGED?

>> YES, THERE'S BEEN A REAL CHANGE IN WHAT TEACHERS ASSIGN.

AS YOU MENTION, A SURVEY OF MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS FROM LAST YEAR THAT FOUND MOST ASSIGNED ZERO TO FOUR BOOKS A YEAR.

THEY'VE STEADILY PULLED BOOKS FROM THE CURRICULUM IN FAVOR OF EXCERPTS AND PRACTICE READING COMPREHENSION QUESTIONS THAT MIGHT COME UP ON A STANDARDIZED TEST.

THAT'S ONE SIDE OF THE COIN.

AND WE'RE SEEING AS BOOKS HAVE LEFT THE CLASSROOM, CHROMEBOOKS HAVE ENTERED IT.

80% SAY STUDENTS RECEIVE A DIGITAL DEVICE BY KINDERGARTEN.

WE'RE SEEING A HUGE CHANGE HOW SCHOOL WORKS, FAR FEWER BOOKS AND MORE TIME ON DEVICES.

>> AN EXCERPT FROM AN INTERVIEW THAT CHRISTIANE JUST CONDUCTED WITH ANN PATCHETT, THE AUTHOR OF "THE DUTCH HOUSE," BEL CANTO," SHE'S AN EVANGELICAL ON READING.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID.

>> IF I JUST WENT BY THE NEWS AND WHAT I HEARD, I WOULD THINK READING IS DEAD.

BOOKS ARE DEAD.

VERY, VERY BAD.

PEOPLE AREN'T READING, YOUNG PEOPLE AREN'T READING.

YET EVERY MORNING AT THE BOOKSTORE THEY'RE LINED UP TO COME IN.

PEOPLE OF ALL AGES, WHO LOVE BOOKS, CARE SO MUCH ABOUT READING.

AND ALL OF THE AUTHORS WHO COME.

AND DEBUT AUTHORS, YOUNG WRITERS, FAMOUS WRITERS, EVERYBODY WANTING TO GET TOGETHER TO COME TO BOOK CLUB, TO STORY TIME.

THERE'S STILL A VERY STRONG GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WANT -- LOVE BOOKS.

I'M ON BOOK TOUR, EVERY NIGHT I GO TO A DIFFERENT CITY, MEET SO MANY PEOPLE WHO LOVE TO READ AND LOVE BOOKS AND FIND TREMENDOUS SOLACE IN THE COMMUNITY OF READERS.

>> HOW DO WE SCALE THAT?

>> YES.

IT'S INTERESTING IF YOU LOOK, PRINT BOOK SALES WERE ACTUALLY HIGHER LAST YEAR THAN A DECADE AGO.

SO ANN PATCHETT'S EXPERIENCE LINES UP WITH THAT DATA.

THERE ARE POSITIVE SIGNS THAT PEOPLE ARE READING.

I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DATA, WE FIND THE PEOPLE WHO DO READ ARE MORE INVESTED IN READING THAN EVER BEFORE, SPEND MORE TIME READING THAN THEY USED TO.

BUT THEY'RE JUST BECOMING A SMALLER AND SMALLER MINORITY IN SOCIETY.

LAST YEAR 20% OF AMERICANS ACCOUNTED FOR 80% OF ALL THE BOOKS READ.

THERE'S THIS COMMUNITY OF READERS BUT THEY'RE SHRINKING AND BECOMING A SUBCULTURE.

ONE HISTORIAN I SPOKE TO COMPARED READING FOR PLEASURE TO GARDENING ORCHIDS OR COLLECTING STAMPS, IT'S BECOMING A NICHE HOBBY NOW.

>> AND AS YOU NOTED, THERE ARE WAYS OF COUNTERING THAT.

THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A CORRELATION BETWEEN BOOK BANS AND AN INCREASE IN READING.

NEARLY TWO DOZEN STATES HAVE BANNED PHONES IN SCHOOLS.

ONE DALLAS DISTRICT CHECKED OUT 200,000 MORE LIBRARY BOOKS IN ONE YEAR.

THAT'S SOMETHING I HOPE OTHER STATES CAN PAY ATTENTION TO.

FULL DISCLOSURE, I LISTENED TO HALF OF THIS ARTICLE ON AUDIBLE BECAUSE I WAS WATCHING MY DAUGHTER AND HER SPORTS LESSON.

MULTITASKING HAS ENABLED ME TO READ MORE BOOKS WHILE I'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO OTHER THINGS AND OTHER PRIORITIES THAT LIFE THROWS OUR WAY.

HOW DO YOU VIEW, HOW DO EXPERTS VIEW AUDIO BOOKS?

>> SO EXPERTS ARE LARGELY PRETTY POSITIVE ON AUDIO BOOKS.

THEY HAVE BECOME A BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY.

CLEARLY THERE'S STILL AN APPETITE FOR STORIES AND IT'S MUCH BETTER THAN PEOPLE NOT READING OR TAKING IN BOOKS IN ANY WAY.

BUT WHAT YOU MENTIONED, PART OF THE REASON AUDIO BOOKS HAVE BECOME SO POPULAR IS THEY ALLOW YOU TO MULTITASK, TO DO THE DISHES, DRIVE WHILE READING.

SO YOUR COMPREHENSION ISN'T GOING TO BE AS HIGH IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING ELSE THAN IF YOU WERE READING A BOOK WHERE YOU HAVE TO DEVOTE SUSTAINED FOCUS TO TAKE IT IN ON THE PAGE.

>> I THINK I DO RETAIN MORE FOCUS WHEN I'M ACTUALLY READING THE PAGE.

SOMETIMES I HAVE TO REWIND, WHAT IS DID I JUST HEAR?

BUT I DO ENJOY A GOOD AUDIO BOOK.

ROSE, THANK YOU SO MUCH, REALLY APPRECIATE IT, FASCINATING PIECE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> HOMICIDE RATES IN THE U. S. ARE AT AN ALL TIME LOW BUT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE KILLINGS HAVE STAYED HIGH.

THESE ARE PREDICTABLE AND PREVENTIBLE.

FOLLOWING THE KILLING OF HER SISTER-IN- LAW AND NIECES, SHE'S SPENT THE LAST THREE DECADES ADVOCATES FOR MORE PROTECTIONS AGAINST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SPEAKS ABOUT WHAT POLICY MAKERS CAN DO TO INTERVENE.

WARNING, THIS CONTAINS TOPICS LIKE RAPE THAT COULD BE DISTURBING FOR VIEWERS.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S A DIFFICULT SUBJECT BUT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF VERY DIFFICULT STORIES IN THE NEWS IN RECENT WEEKS AND MONTHS OF INDIVIDUALS KILLING A SPOUSE, IN SOME CASES KILLING THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY.

AND JUST TO START OUR CONVERSATION OFF, ONE OF THE REASONS YOU AS A SCHOLAR, RESEARCHER AND PRACTITIONER ARE INTERESTED IS YOU'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE IN YOUR FAMILY.

DO YOU MIND TELLING US WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I'VE HAD THIS EXPERIENCE IN MY FAMILY.

THE WAY YOU MENTIONED WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS SOMETHING I ALWAYS WANT TO HIGHLIGHT.

.

WHEN IT DID HAPPEN IN OUR FAMILY, MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS WE'RE THAT FAMILY NOW.

THERE'S SUCH STIGMA.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT AND HEAR ABOUT.

IN MY FAMILY SITUATION, MY SISTER-IN-LAW LAURA HAD BEEN MARRIED TO HER HUSBAND FOR A WHILE.

THEY HAD TWO CHILDREN TOGETHER.

WE COULD TELL THERE WAS A LOT OF CONTROL, SOME EMOTIONAL AND VERBALLY VIOLENT LANGUAGE AND BEHAVIORS THAT WERE TROUBLESOME.

LAURA WAS FINALLY ABLE TO SEE THOSE THINGS AND UNDERSTAND THEM.

WHAT WE KNOW NOW FROM HER JOURNALS, SHE WAS ALREADY DEALING WITH A GREAT FEAR OF BEING KILLED.

WE HELPED HER MOVE OUT OF HER HOME IN SEATTLE AND SHE AND HER TWO DAUGHTERS MOVED TO OREGON NEAR US TO LIVE WITH MY MOTHER-IN-LAW.

AND THINGS WERE GOING PRETTY WELL UNTIL HE BROKE INTO THE HOUSE AND RAPED HER ONE DAY WHEN THE GIRLS AND MY MOTHER-IN-LAW WERE WITH ME.

THAT'S WHAT RESULTED IN THE PREGNANCY THAT BROUGHT US MY YOUNGEST NIECE, APRIL.

BEFORE THEY WERE KILLED, I HOSTED A BACKPACK PARTY BECAUSE IT WAS FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL.

SHE WAS SO EXCITED TO HAVE THIS NEW START.

BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE, WE HAD HELPED LAURA GET A RESTRAINING ORDER, A HARD-FOUGHT LEGAL PROCESS.

BUT THAT MORNING, ANGRY OVER MISSING THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT OF HER FIRST DAY AT KINDERGARTEN, WAS ABLE TO PURCHASE A DONE, SHOT INTO THE HOME WITH A GUN, PUSHING THEM INTO THE FRONT YARD AND HE SHOT THEM AND KILLED THEM ALL.

MY MOTHER-IN-LAW HAD ONE OF THE GIRLS STANDING WITH HER AND WAS SHOT.

HE DID NOT SHOOT HER I THINK TO KILL HER, PARTIALLY TO PUNISH HER IN HER ROLE OF LAURA LEAVING.

I HAD A 3-MONTH-OLD BABY, AND WE GOT OUR MOTHER-IN-LAW, AND WERE HER CAREGIVERS UNTIL THE END OF HER LIFE.

I THOUGHT IF THIS DOESN'T CHANGE EVERYTHING, WHAT WILL.

THIS IS IN '95 AND NOW WE KNOW THAT 70 WOMEN ON AVERAGE ARE KILLED IN A MONTH IN AMERICA BY INTIMATE PARTNERS AND GUNS ARE THE NUMBER ONE KILLER OF CHILDREN.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS, WE'RE IN A MOMENT THAT HOMICIDE RATES HAVE DECLINED AGAIN.

OVERALL RATES HAVE DECLINED BUT FAMILY AND INTIMATE PARTNER KILLINGS ACCOUNT FOR 21% OF ALL HOMICIDES, UP FROM 15% IN 2020.

AND THE ATTACKS IN WHICH SOMEONE KILLS FOUR OR MORE RELATIVES, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN YOUR FAMILY, HAVE ALREADY SURPASSED ALL OF LAST YEAR'S TOTAL AND THE YEAR IS HALFWAY THROUGH.

SEEMS WE'RE IN A STRANGE MOMENT.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU, BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE NOTICED THE NUMBERS YOURSELF.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON HERE?

>> AS A PERSON WHO HAS WORKED IN THE GUN PREVENTION MOVEMENT, WE'VE TAKEN SERIOUSLY THE ISSUE OF COMMUNITY VIOLENCE AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK AND WE'RE SEEN THE IMPACT.

WHEN WE PASS COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS AND LEGISLATORS HAVE THE WILL AND ABILITY TO ENFORCE THEM, VIOLENCE GOES DOWN.

FOR FAMILY VIOLENCE KILLINGS, THE ISSUES ARE DEEPLY PRIVATE AND IN THE HOME.

THINGS LIKE SUBSTANCE MISUSE, PRIOR ABUSE, FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC CONCERNS.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY HARD FOR PEOPLE TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE OF THE FACT THAT THIS COULD BE THEIR FAMILY.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS WE HEAR WITH GUN VIOLENCE IS PEOPLE WERE JUST IN THE WRONG PLACE AT WRONG TIME.

MY NIECES AND SISTER-IN-LAW WITH WERE IN THEIR GRANDMOTHER'S YARD.

THIS THESE ARE PREVENTIBLE DEATHS IF WE WORK HARD TO MAKE THEM SO.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER INSIGHTS YOU SHARED IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE TERRIBLE CRIMES, INCIDENTS, THINGS THAT HAPPENED AS IF IT'S OUT OF THE BLUE, TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE, WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED, AND I THINK ONE OF YOUR INSIGHTS FROM YOUR WORK IS ACTUALLY IT'S NOT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE COULD BE LOOKING TO?

PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS AREN'T THINKING ABOUT THAT THEY COULD BE AWARE OF?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY, WE NEED TO LISTEN MORE TO WOMEN.

THIS IS JUST A HUGE ISSUE.

TYPICALLY THERE ARE INDICATORS YOU CAN NOTICE LIKE COERCIVE CONTROL.

AND ALSO IF YOU LISTEN WELL, YOU CAN HEAR WOMEN'S FEAR AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THAT.

ONCE THERE'S BEEN A DISCLOSURE THAT A WOMAN FEELS AFRAID OR IF A WOMEN CONTINUES TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THEIR PARTNER HAS FIRE ARMS AND THAT CONCERNS THEM, IF PEOPLE AROUND THEM ARE WILLING TO FIND RESOURCES TO BE HELPFUL.

OTHER BIG THING, WHEN THERE IS MARRIAGE DIFFICULTY, SEPARATION, DIVORCE OR THE CONTROL SIGNS, TYPICALLY IF THERE IS A LARGE MOMENT HAPPENING IN THAT COUPLE --FOR INSTANCE, THEIR WEDDING ANNIVERSARY.

IN OUR STORY, SARAH'S FIRST DAY OF KINDERGARTEN.

A GRADUATION, ANY OF THE LARGE MOMENTS CAN PEAK AN ABUSER'S FEELING OF MISSING OUT.

AND IF THEY HAVE --ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE ACCESS TO A FIREARM, THAT'S AN INCREDIBLY IMPULSIVE AND EFFECTIVE METHOD FOR CARRYING OUT THEIR FRUSTRATION AND VIOLENCE.

>> YOU USED THE TERM "COERCIVE CONTROL," CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> IN THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE WORLD THERE'S A SHIFTING TO TALKING ABOUT COERCIVE CONTROL AS SMALL MICROAGGRESSIONS THAT HAPPEN IN A RELATIONSHIP AND A PARTNER BEGINS TO UNDERSTAND THEY'RE AT RISK IF THEY DIVERGE FROM WHAT THEIR PARTNER WANTS THEM TO DO, WHO THEY WANT THEM TO BE, TO BE AROUND.

THIS LEADS TO ISOLATION.

DAVE DIDN'T WANT LAURA HAVING CONTACT WITH US.

COULD BE CHOICES ABOUT NO LONGER GOING TO CHURCH OR FAMILY GROUPS OR SCHOOL SOCIALS.

ANYTHING THAT MAKES ONE PERSON IN THE RELATIONSHIP IN A ONE DOWN POSITION AND THE OTHER IN A ONE UP.

>> WHAT ARE OTHER WAYS THAT COERCIVE CONTROL CAN BE EXERCISED IF IT'S NOT JUST PHYSICAL VIOLENCE?

>> THERE CAN BE A WEAPONIZATION OF SUPPORT PEOPLE OF THE SPOUSE.

SO THE ABUSIVE SPOUSE CAN KIND OF MAKE THE -- THE SPOUSE WHO IS BEING CONTROLLED BELIEVE FOR INSTANCE THEIR FAMILY IS AGAINST THEM, A THERAPIST IS AGAINST THEM.

THEY REALLY DO SOLATE.

IT COULD LOOK LIKE VERBAL PUTDOWNS, REPUTATION COLLAPSE.

WHERE AN ABUSER WORKS TO PUT THE PERSON AT RISK'S REPUTATION IN QUESTION AND PEOPLE AROUND THEM SO THEN THEY NEED THE ABUSER MORE.

>> LIKE WHAT, YOU'RE CRAZY?

YOU'RE INCOMPETENT?

YOU SCREW EVERYTHING UP?

>> MY WIFE IS SO DUMB, MY WIFE HAS NO IDEA.

POSTS MAYBE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT PUT THEM DOWN.

UNFLATTERING POSTS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> YOU INDICATED YOU HAD HINTS IN THE FAMILY THAT YOUR SISTER-IN-LAW WAS -- THERE WAS SOMETHING NOT RIGHT IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

WHATEVER WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS, WERE THEY ILL AT EASE WITH THEIR DAD?

>> THEY DID.

THEY WERE VERY HESITANT TO BE WITH OTHERS, THEY WERE AFRAID, THEY TALKED ABOUT BEING FEARFUL OF THEIR SAFETY WHEN THEY HAD VISITS WITH DAD.

THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SUPERVISED VISITS BUT THEY TALKED A LOT ABOUT FEAR.

THEY WERE ALWAYS QUITE DISTRESSED AFTER VISITS WITH THEIR DAD AND ONE WAS ONLY 5 MONTHS OLD.

>> DID THE DAD SHOW SIGNS OF VIOLENT BEHAVIOR BEFORE?

REASON I ASK THAT, WHY HE WAS ALLOWED TO SEE THE KIDS AT ALL?

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE FRUSTRATIONS.

RESTRAINING ORDER IS A HARD-FOUGHT, HARD-WON LEGAL REQUIREMENT THAT WOMEN HAVE TO WORK HARD TO RECEIVE.

AND EVEN WITH THAT RESTRAINING ORDER IN PLACE, AFTER A VERY VIOLENT ACT, HE WAS STILL AWARDED VERY SHORT AND WITH ANOTHER PERSON PRESENT VISITATIONS.

THAT MADE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO US.

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THE ISSUE IS BECAUSE WOMEN ARE STILL NOT PROTECTED.

>> THERE'S EVIDENCE HE COMMITTED VIOLENCE, BREAKING INTO THE HOUSE IS A VIOLENCE ACT TO COMMIT ANOTHER ACT OF VIOLENCE, RAPING HIS SEPARATED SPOUSE.

WHY WASN'T HE PROSECUTED FOR THAT?

>> THAT'S SOMETHING WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT LAURA, AGAIN, HAD BEEN, OVER TIME, VERY MUCH TAUGHT TO BELIEVE HER VOICE SHOULD BE QUESTIONED.

IT TOOK US A LONG TIME TO CONVINCE HER TO SEEK THE RESTRAINING ORDER.

WOMEN ARE FEARFUL TO BRING FORWARD WHAT IS GOING ON BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE AND COERCIVE CONTROL THAT LEADS THEM TO BELIEVE THEY ARE NOTHING AND HAVE NO POWER TO PROTECT THEIR CHILDREN >> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ACCESS TO GUNS.

THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT ACCESS TO A GUN DOES MAKE AN ABUSIVE PARTNER FIVE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO KILL WOMEN.

85% OF INTIMATE PARTNER HOMICIDES, SUICIDES INVOLVE A FIREARM.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL US ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND GUN ACCESS?

>> WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH THE MOST MOST GUNS, MORE GUNS THAN PEOPLE PER CAPITA, AND DON'T HAVE GOOD GUN LAWS.

THAT EFFECTIVE MANNER OF CAUSING DEATH INCREASES THE CHANCES OF IT HAPPENING IN A SITUATION THAT'S ALREADY VOLATILE AND A PERSON CAN BE ANGRY.

HUNDREDS MORE WOMEN ARE THREATENED AND INJURED BUT NOT KILLED.

THIS IS WHY COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS WORK TO LOWER COMMUNITY VIOLENCE.

IF WE CAN PASS SPECIFIC COMMON SENSE GUN LAWS THAT WOULD LOWER THE CHANCE OF FAMILY HOMICIDES, THAT WOULD BE INCREDIBLE.

THERE'S AT LEAST FOUR WAYS TO DO THAT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> ONE WOULD BE EXTREME RISK PROTECTION ORDERS.

THIS IS WHEN AN ABUSED INDIVIDUAL KNOWS THAT THEIR PARTNER HAS A FIREARM AND FEELS CONCERNED, THEY CAN GO TO A JUDGE AND PETITION FOR THIS EXTREME PROTECTION ORDER WHICH THEN ALLOWS SOMEONE TO HELP THAT ABUSER RID THEMSELVES OF THEIR GUNS AND BE STORED UNTIL SAFETY CAN BE RE-ESTABLISHED.

THIS IS A VERY EFFECTIVE LAW.

ALSO UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, CHECKS FOR ALL GUN PURCHASES WOULD HELP.

MAKING SURE EVERY STATE HAS LAWS WHERE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MISDEMEANOR OR FELONY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CHARGES ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE FIREARMS, AND THEN ANY FIREARMS THEY ALREADY HAVE ARE ACTUALLY TAKEN AND HELD.

THE FINAL LEGISLATION THAT WOULD BE VERY EFFECTIVE IS THE STORAGE OR CHILD ACCESS PROTECTION LAWS THAT MAKE SURE A FIREARM IS KEPT IN SOMETHING LIKE A BIOMETRIC SAFE.

EVEN THE SMALL ACTION OF HAVING TO PUT YOUR HAND ON THE SAFE TO OPEN IT COULD GIVE PEOPLE TIME TO FLEE OR GIVE THE PERSON CONTEMPLATING --THIS IS USUALLY A VERY --IT'S PLANNED BUT AT THE END TIME, IT'S ADRENALINE FUELLED, SOMEWHAT IMPULSIVE WHEN YOU PULL THAT TRIGGER.

THOSE LAWS COULD ALSO BE A HUGE HELP IN THIS SITUATION.

>> HOW WOULD HAVING TO GET A GUN OUT OF A SAFE KEEP SOMEBODY IN A RAGE --ON A RAGE TANTRUM, LIKE YOUR RELATIVE WAS, STOP HIM?

YOU'RE SAYING MAYBE THAT RAGE TANTRUM COULD PASS OR GIVE THE OTHER PARTY TIME TO FIGURE OUT AN EXIT STRATEGY.

>> I THINK ALL THE TIME ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE A SAFE IN HIS CAR TO GET THAT GUN OUT OF.

OR IF HE WOULD HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO THE FACT HE WAS LOOKING INTO THE EYES OF HIS 5-MONTH- OLD BABY, MAYBE HE COULD HAVE CHANGED HIS MIND.

BUT WHEN WE HAVE EASY ACCESS, AND NOTHING THAT INTERRUPTS THAT PROCESS, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE INCREASED AMOUNTS OF DEATHS AND WHEN WE'RE NOT PROTECTING WOMEN IN THE WAYS I BELIEVE THEY DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED.

>> I KNOW THIS ISN'T THE EASIEST THING TO TALK ABOUT, BUT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE PERPETRATORS, WHY THEY DO THIS?

>> THIS IS A TRICKY ISSUE EVEN WITHOUT MY FAMILY.

FOR ME, I HAD TO COME TO A PLACE WHERE I COULD SAY DAVE DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND I CAN'T LIVE HATING HIM.

AND IT WAS EATING AT ME.

IT'S A VERY HARD PLACE TO BE.

HE WAS A HURT PERSON WHO HURT PEOPLE.

BUT NOW, WHAT I FIND MYSELF THINKING ABOUT MORE THAN EVEN THE PERPETRATOR OF THE VIOLENCE IS PEOPLE LIKE THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR FAMILY.

I THINK ABOUT THE RIPPLES OF TRAUMA THAT IN AMERICA PROBABLY NOW EVERY CITY IS LIVING WITH, THAT NO ONE IS REALLY TALKING ABOUT.

I DON'T KNOW IF DAVE'S PARENTS OR FAMILY EVER GOT ANY SUPPORT OR IF THEY JUST HAD TO LIVE IN SHAME AND FEAR.

THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE, UNTIL WE REALLY START ADDRESSING ALL OF THE CULTURAL AND FAMILY TRAUMA, WE'RE RAISING A WHOLE NEW GENERATION AT RISK OF DOING THE SAME EXACT THING.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, IF SOMEONE WERE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION AND WAS WORRIED ABOUT SOMEONE IN THEIR FAMILY AND THOUGHT I THINK SOMETHING IS NOT QUITE RIGHT AND I WANT TO BE HELPFUL HERE, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS YOU COULD OPEN UP THAT CONVERSATION?

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING THAT.

THE FIRST THING TO DO IS LOOK WITHIN YOUR STATE TO SEE IF YOU HAVE AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTION LAW OR THEY'RE SOMETIMES CALLED RED FLAG LAWS.

PEOPLE WITHIN EACH STATE CAN HELP A PERSON MOVE THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS.

IT'S QUICK, FULLY VETTED AND SAFE LEGAL PROCESS.

I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO SEEK OUT SOURCES LIKE BRADY, GUN SAFETY, NEW SAFETY ALLIANCE.

THEY HAVE RESOURCES FOR HOW WE BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF FEAR OF POTENTIAL DEATH AT THE HANDS OF YOUR PARTNER IN SUCH A WAY WITH THERAPISTS.

A LOT OF THERAPISTS AREN'T ALSO AWARE.

YOU CAN GATHER RESOURCES TO HELP EMPOWER THAT PERSON.

THE THING I WOULD SAY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN --BELIEVE WOMEN.

IF YOU HAVE A NIGGLING FEELING SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT, ASK QUESTIONS, COME WITH A FEW RESOURCES, LISTEN WELL, LISTEN OVER TIME UNTIL A WOMAN FEELS SAFE TO TELL YOU, THEN FIND THE RESOURCES IN YOUR COMMUNITY THAT WOULD HAVE A HELP.

>> DOREEN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW NEEDS HELP IN THE U. S. , CALL THE NATIONAL DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOTLINE, AROUND THE WORLD, U. N. WOMEN OR THE PIXEL PROJECT HAS A LIST OF RESOURCES FOR YOU DNCHS FINALLY, WE REMEMBER A TITAN OF THE SILVER SCREEN, SAM NEILL HAS DIED AT 88.

BEST KNOWN IN "JURASSIC PARK. "

>> NO.

YOU STARE AT HIM, HE JUST STARES RIGHT BACK.

AND THAT'S WHEN THE ATTACK COMES.

NOT FROM THE FRONT BUT FROM THE SIDE.

AND OTHER TWO RAPTORS YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WERE THERE.

>> TRIBUTES HAVE DESCRIBED HIM AS ONE OF THE GREATS AND A NATIONAL TREASURE.

CREDITING HIM FOR BEING A TRAILBLAZER FOR FELLOW NEW ZEALANDERS BACK HOME.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.