>> Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, a renowned psychiatrist and expert on the neurochemistry of the brain, explains how dopamine drives our behavior, from love and creativity to addiction.

We discuss how to use dopamine healthily, the differences between passionate and compassionate love, and the neurobiological basis of our actions.

This fascinating conversation will help you optimize your brain's potential.

I'm so glad that you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ The whole thing is about dopamine, what I'm hearing you say.

And the unconscious mind and dopamine, is that a lot of the work that you're you're dealing with?

>> Yeah, you know, the unconscious mind is what I'm working on for my next book.

Dopamine is about the molecule of more.

I'm fascinated in both of them.

>> So, what do we need to know about dopamine?

How does it help us?

How does it hurt us?

>> Most people, when they think about dopamine, they think about pleasure.

>> Uh-huh.

>> But that's just a small piece of what dopamine does.

The bigger picture is, is that it's used to maximize future resources.

That's why we call the book "The Molecule of More."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Dopamine is all about making the future better than the present.

And so it can do wonderful things.

It can give us energy, motivation, desire, excitement, confidence, but it can also do terrible things.

It can make us dissatisfied, unhappy, miserable, constantly chasing something we can never capture.

>> Hmm.

>> It's a powerful tool.

We got to learn how to use it properly.

>> What are the most powerful examples of dopamine in a healthy way, and then powerful in an unhealthy way, that you see in the world happening?

>> Right.

So, you know, I tend to think of entrepreneurs, in terms of healthy dopamine.

They want to build something that never existed before.

And you know what it's like to be an entrepreneur.

>> Absolutely.

>> I tried once and I couldn't do it.

>> It's hard, man.

>> It's very hard.

>> It's hard.

>> Yeah, you've gotta -- You've gotta go, go, go, go, go.

You gotta be driven by passion.

You have to work 10 times as much as if you're working a regular job.

But dopamine makes it fun, and that's one of the beautiful things about dopamine, is it can make -- it can just make us feel so alive as we work to make the future better than the present.

>> So, dopamine is about -- is about seeing something and having an idea in your mind that's not here in the real world.

I think, in your TED Talk, you talk about, uh, there's two different spaces in the world -- the space that we're looking down, that we can touch and grab it, and then an external space out there.

What are those two spaces called?

>> Yes, when we think about how dopamine evolved, we've got the peripersonal space, and that's basically the space in arm's reach.

>> So anything within my reach, um, my energetic field of where my arms go to, is called the peri what?

>> Peripersonal.

>> Peripersonal?

>> Yeah, "peri" means "around."

>> Okay, cool.

>> Right?

It's around you.

>> And what does that space -- what does that mean for us?

>> That's, um -- Anything in the peripersonal space is stuff that you own, you've got control over, and you interact with it in the present.

>> This pen, this notebook, your book, this coffee cup, this iPad, this table, this chair, these clothes and I'm wearing, that's in my personal space.

>> Yep, exactly.

And the way you interact with it is consummatory.

That means consume.

You know, I can take a drink from this glass of water, but it also refers to consummation.

Uh, what happens at the end when the thing that you've worked for, you now have?

That's the consummation, and that's also related to the peripersonal space -- stuff you have now.

>> Okay, so, that's -- How does dopamine play into the peripersonal space?

>> When you are interacting with things in the peripersonal space, dopamine shuts off.

>> Really?

Even your phone?

>> The atoms and molecules may be in the peripersonal space, but your head is far away when you're interacting with your phone.

>> Because it's in a different -- it's not actually in front of you, it's in a different space.

>> It's in a different space.

>> The content you're consuming, it might be on the phone, but it's somewhere else.

>> It's somewhere else.

You're usually focused on possibilities when you're in your phone.

You're reading social media, you're reading the news, you're thinking about "How is this going to affect me?"

We're thinking about the future.

>> Interesting.

Okay.

And so what's the other space?

>> The other space is the extrapersonal space, outside the personal space.

Okay.

That's stuff that's not within arm's reach.

And it could be an apple across the room, on a table.

Or it could be the moon.

Whatever it is, you don't have it.

And if you want it, you're going to have to work for it, and your interaction with it is going to take place in the future.

>> So, if there's an apple, you know, across the room, it's an easier effort to stand up, go grab the apple, and eat it than it is if it was right in front of you.

But it's much harder to get to the moon.

>> Right, but even that apple is going to require some effort, maybe even some planning, and it's happening in the future.

It's not happening right now.

It's not in this moment.

I can't just grab it and chew it.

I have to get up.

And there's some times where I'm on the, you know, couch, watching sports, and I see something in the kitchen.

I'm like, "I really want that, but it's really comfortable right now, and I don't want to get up."

And so you have to have some effort sometimes to go across the room.

>> You do, you do.

But, you know, it's funny.

Sometimes things that we don't have, but we want, give us more joy than the things we have.

>> Why is that?

The things we desire.

>> Yeah.

There's a great quotation from the book, "The House at Pooh Corner."

Did you ever read that?

>> Winnie-the-Pooh?

>> Yeah.

I love children's literature.

>> It's so good.

>> So, anyways, Christopher Robin asks Pooh, "What is it that you like the best in all the world?"

And of course, the first thing Winnie-the-Pooh thinks about is honey.

And he's about to say, "Eating honey."

But then, this is an amazingly sophisticated thing for a children's book.

Then, he thinks, there's a moment before you start to eat honey that's even better.

But he didn't know what it was called.

It's called dopamine.

>> That's dopamine.

>> That's dopamine.

It's the anticipation of about to get a reward and somehow...

Right?

You go into a great restaurant for dinner, and you're excited about it.

You're thinking about it all day long.

You're there, you're chewing the food, and your brain is somewhere else.

>> Really?

>> Or maybe there's a few moments of like, "Oh, this is amazing," but then after those first few bites, you're on to the next.

>> Right.

>> Gosh.

So, is that a healthy thing for us to do, to think about the future consistently, but then not appreciate the moment of what we're enjoying, that that we've been desiring all day or years of a dream that we've been trying to create?

>> Right now, it's not healthy at all.

And you know, one of the things we say is that the guy who is most able to afford the beach house is the least able to enjoy it.

>> Gosh, why is that?

>> He goes out to his beautiful beach house, he pulls out his laptop, and he's working, right?

He can't just sit there and smell the breeze, right?

>> Why is that?

>> It's because the guy who can afford the beach house was born with a pretty powerful dopamine system, and he it's hard for him to turn it off.

>> So he was driven and driven and driven.

And that's what allowed him to get the resources that he never had in order to buy the beach house.

>> Right.

Yeah.

And then now he's got the beach house, he can't turn it off and enjoy the beach house.

He's thinking about what's next -- the next deal he's going to do, the trip to Europe, who knows what.

>> How can someone be so hungry to reach a vision and create more in a healthy place, but also be satisfied with where they're at?

>> It's hard.

It's hard.

You know, the first question is, do they want to.

>> Do they want to be satisfied or be happy?

>> Yeah, I mean, you've heard the saying, "To travel hopefully is better than to arrive."

Have you heard that?

>> Sure.

>> Yeah, that's a dopamine saying, of course, right?

It's better to anticipate than to have.

And some people don't want to make that shift.

You know?

To them, the peripersonal, the here and now, it feels all touchy-feely and it makes them uncomfortable and they don't like it.

They want to spend their life in the future.

I don't think that's healthy, but I'm not going to -- I'm not going to judge them.

I'm not going to choose for them.

So the first thing is, they have to decide whether that's something that they want.

>> Mm.

But where does dopamine -- How does dopamine really get you addicted to things like drugs, social media, alcohol, or just bad habits.

>> Yeah.

So, it's one thing to choose dopamine instead of here and now because it gives you pleasure.

That's a choice.

But it can very easily get to the point where you're no longer in control, you're no longer making choices.

Dopamine is controlling you.

And a good example of that is doomscrolling, right?

You're going through your social media, you're bored, you're maybe even unhappy, but you can't stop scrolling because what dopamine is saying is, "One more scroll, and there might be something that will change your future, and you can't miss that."

And so that's an example.

Another example is compulsive eating, for example.

We're no longer enjoying that third doughnut, but something is making us eat it.

>> [ Chuckling ] Right.

It's like, "I just want more and more and more."

>> "I feel sick.

Every bite makes me feel worse.

Why do I keep biting this?"

>> That's dopamine?

>> Dopamine, yeah.

>> So, the dopamine is telling us what?

That we're not happy with what we have; we still need more of that thing?

>> Yeah, >> Whether it be social media, I'm not happy with 10 minutes of scrolling.

I need 30 minutes, I need 50 minutes, because something is gonna -- I'm gonna feel something that I don't have in this moment.

Is that what it's saying?

>> You know, I like to think of it evolutionarily.

Human beings evolved on the brink of starvation.

Right?

We were always in a situation where we did not have enough resources and we could be dead tomorrow.

And that's where dopamine evolved.

And so dopamine is basically, "Keep your eye on the ball.

Look, that third doughnut is making you sick.

You might not have calories for the next three days.

Get it inside you, and you'll be alive."

>> Wow.

So, is this genetics, then?

>> It's genetics, yeah.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> So, how do we turn the gene off, in our favor, to not suffer?

>> That's what we get into in the later parts.

And you know, we -- Western civilization is very much of a dopamine civilization, of more, more, more.

And I think, in order to achieve balance in one's life, you've got to make an effort not to do that.

In the past, we did more of that.

One of the ways you get in the here and now is by working with your hands.

I don't know if you have any hobbies like working on cars or woodworking or drawing or painting.

>> I wish I had a talent in any of those, but I don't.

I appreciate it, but I play guitar a little bit.

I'm not that good, but I play guitar, and I love, uh -- I love sports, though.

I like anything, you know, um, with a ball -- you know, playing basketball, soccer, football, Ping-Pong.

Pickleball, now I'm loving.

So anything where I get to hold something and hit a racket, catch a ball, where it makes me have to focus in that moment if I want to succeed at that thing.

Um, I also love salsa dancing, so it's, like, something interactive, where it's listening to music and experiencing it.

>> Yeah.

I think the height of human experience is when these two things are working at the same time -- the dopamine circuits in the brain and the here-and-now circuits.

And that happens in sports.

The here-and-now circuits are focused on your body and the ball.

What's happening right now?

Dopamine circuits are thinking strategy.

"What's my opponent going to do?

What should I do next?"

And I think that's some of the intense pleasure of a nice competitive sport.

>> Yeah, it's fun.

>> Yeah.

>> That's awesome.

>> Yeah.

>> So, how do we learn to master dopamine, then, so that it can help us succeed in everything we want?

>> I think it's very much about being aware of what's going on.

>> Okay.

>> And so when I was writing this book, I got in the habit of asking myself, "Is this a dopamine moment, or is this a here-and-now moment?"

>> Uh-huh.

>> And if it was a dopamine moment, good.

Think about the future.

Work hard.

Make something new.

Create.

Think about possibilities.

Think about potentialities, things that don't exist.

If it's a here-and-now moment, though -- spending time with my family -- >> Don't be thinking about the future.

>> Don't be thinking about the future.

>> When you're with your kids, or when you're with your partner or your friends, right?

So turn it off.

>> Turn it off.

"What's in the present moment?"

>> What's the best strategy you've learned to turn it off, to be present?

Because I hear a lot of stories about how parents are -- I don't have kids, but I hear -- I've heard this from parents that their kids want their attention, but they're saying they're just looking at their phone, still, or they're distracted because of the addiction, I guess, or that dopamine wanting more of the thing that they don't have right now.

So how can people turn it off when they're in those scenarios with friends, family, and activities?

>> Yeah.

So, I think the first thing is to be deliberate, to say, "Okay, I'm going to spend the next hour with my kids, and that's not a time where I'm going to be on my phone.

I'm going to leave my phone in the bedroom."

>> Yeah.

>> So then you don't have that temptation.

And then I think listening is the best way to bring yourself into the present moment.

>> Listening.

>> Listening.

>> How do people learn to listen better?

>> It's not easy.

I think the first thing is to recognize how hard it is, and that a lot of times we're not good at listening.

You're having a conversation with someone, a lot of times, you're thinking about what you're going to say next, rather than what the other person.

And people who are very charismatic know how rare this is.

And oftentimes, charismatic people will be described as making you feel like you're the only person in the room, because they're in the present moment.

They're present with you.

>> It's interesting.

I grew up feeling very uneducated, not smart.

You know, just from school.

I performed poorly in school.

>> Uh-huh.

>> And I told myself a story that, you know, "I'm never going to be smart enough.

No one's ever going to be interested in me, because I'm not a smart person."

That's what I told myself, growing up.

And then I heard a quote -- I believe it's by Roosevelt -- that says, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

And I said, "Oh, maybe I have a chance if I just show that I care about people and put energy and effort into listening and caring about their lives and their stories.

Maybe they'll want to hang out with me."

So it was kind of like, I don't know, just a strategy to find friends in high school.

It was like, "Let me just pay attention to people and just focus and ask questions that I'm curious about, and listen."

And I started doing that in business early on, when I had no skills on making money or starting a business.

I had no idea what I was going to do.

But in the business world, I would go to networking events and I would just ask people questions about themselves, and I would never talk about myself, ever.

And at the end of these events, people were like, "You're the most interesting person in the room."

And I never said anything.

I just asked questions and paid attention.

While everyone was being distracted and looking around the room, I just focused.

And it served me well, you know?

And it's probably one of the reasons why I wanted to do an interview show, just to be able to sit down and ask questions.

>> Yeah.

>> So you don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but if you can pay attention, then that can help you in a lot of ways.

>> And how old were you when you came to that realization?

>> Like 16, probably, yeah.

But then it was, like, when I'm in my early 20s when I really started to practice it.

>> Yeah, it can take people a lifetime to have that insight, though.

It's amazing to have that at such an early age.

>> Yeah, I was like, "I'll never be as smart as someone like you.

I'll never be able to do this research and dive in and be this, like, scientist of the brain or neuroscience or things like that.

But if I can just put my effort and energy towards paying attention and listening to people and asking questions that open people's hearts and minds, that will get them, you know, grateful in that moment.

And gratitude goes a long way for people.

>> Yeah, it sure does.

>> That was my strategy.

I'm not going to be the smartest, I'm going to be the most caring.

That was the goal.

>> That's great, that's great.

And what's interesting to me about that is that it arose out of hardship.

It arose because you suffered a feeling that you weren't smart enough.

>> Absolutely.

>> And we work so hard in life to avoid hardship.

And yet that's often the most valuable thing we experience in life.

>> Why is it so valuable to experience hardship?

>> I think it's because that when things are going smoothly, we don't have to change.

And standing still in life is not good for us.

We need to grow.

You've seen -- You've seen middle-aged people who still behave like they're in college.

They're desperately hanging on to a point in their life that they felt was the best point for them.

And it's sad.

It's very, very sad to see.

We've got to keep growing, but we don't want to, right?

You know, it's much easier to stay still.

>> And be comfortable, yeah.

>> Yeah, it's very comfortable.

So we need hardship to push us out of that comfort zone and make us grow.

>> When I think back on the last, I guess, my entire life, and I think about the most hard and most difficult experiences that I've faced, and the lessons I learned from that, I go back and think, "Man, I -- you know, I wish I wouldn't have experienced them in the moment, but I want to take it back, based on the lessons I've learned and how much I've grown from them."

I think we need to decide, are we going to learn and develop and grow in these hardships?

Because some of us don't.

Something hard happens, and we just stay stuck, as opposed to break through.

>> Yeah, Nietzsche said, "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger."

It's not true for everybody.

You've got to embrace that.

And you can't let yourself feel crushed by adversity.

You've got to overcome it, and then you'll be stronger.

>> How do you overcome it, though?

>> You know, I think you prepare yourself.

I think you've got to prepare yourself, um, by getting good at -- You can't just say, "When the big thing happens, I'm going to rise to the occasion."

You've got to focus on the little things, right?

>> Like what?

>> Like -- Like, um, you know, you don't say.

"Well, when I'm talking to this very important person who could change my life, I'm going to listen to what they're saying."

No, listen to what everybody is saying.

Listen to what the bus driver is saying.

Right?

And then you get in the habit.

Aristotle said that virtue is a habit, that you can't expect to do the right thing when the big thing happens, unless you're in the habit of doing the right thing when the little things happen.

>> So it's really about just being in integrity with yourself every single day and doing the best you can in every moment, not just when the big moments happen.

>> It really is.

I say to my students, if you want to do the right thing when the chips are down, as a doctor, write good notes.

You focus on the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

>> That's interesting.

So, how do we use dopamine for focus, motivation, creativity, and avoiding unhealthy addictions?

>> I think that we will get the most out of dopamine by keeping it in balance with the here and now.

Dopamine becomes our enemy when it becomes the end-all and be-all, right?

"I've got to get a new wardrobe, I've got to get a new cellphone, I've got to get a new car."

But if we balance it, if we keep it in perspective, if we don't take it that seriously, if we learn how to laugh at ourselves for constantly wanting more, more, more, while at the same time accepting it -- you know, not trying to be saintly -- that's, I think -- keeping in perspective is what's going to be the best.

>> And do you think people need to go through a dopamine detox?

>> Dopamine detox is very controversial.

A lot of people say that that's just a fairy tale.

>> [ Chuckling ] Okay.

>> Right?

Because, when you get hungry and you eat, you get a big, big release of dopamine.

When you work hard and you accomplish something, you get a big release of dopamine.

So, what are you going to do during the detox?

You're going to not eat, you're going to not work, you're going to not make plans to make yourself happy?

You're just going to be miserable, bored, and stupid?

[ Both laugh ] >> So you can't really do that.

Maybe there are certain things, you could say, "What are the things that I've been doing too much of?

I'm on social media too much.

I'm watching too much trash TV.

I'm doing certain activities, maybe, that bring this constant feeling of dopamine," right?

That aren't healthy.

>> Right?

We can pay attention to things that we're squeezing too hard.

Right?

You know, you've not been stimulating dopamine naturally.

You've been basically taking a whip to the brain and forcing it to deliver that dopamine.

And you exhaust its stores.

>> Really?

>> And so when you come down, you're dopamine-deprived.

And that's a horrible feeling.

>> What happens when you're dopamine-deprived?

>> Let me give you a sense of how it feels.

And this is just a little tiny, trivial example.

Every morning you go to the bakery, and you get a cup of coffee and a croissant, okay?

And that's your habit.

In the beginning, it gave you dopamine, right?

Because it was new.

But only novelty can give you dopamine.

After a while, it becomes the same old, same old.

So, you're standing in line for your croissant and your coffee.

Suddenly, your phone rings, and someone's like, "Drop whatever you're doing and get over here right now."

And you get no croissant and coffee that day.

In the brain, dopamine is shutting down, and it's making you feel resentful and deprived.

>> That you didn't get what you wanted.

>> Yeah, what you expected.

What you expected.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah, so, that's how it feels to have a dopamine deficiency.

You feel resentful and deprived.

>> How can you, I guess, navigate it, then, so that you do something -- Maybe you have a routine, but then you mix it up every now and then, so you're not expecting something all the time.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And the novelty, I guess, brings you dopamine of something new and something different.

Or mixing it up.

>> So you may say, "I'm not going to have that croissant and coffee for a month.

And then, when I go back to it, oh, my God."

>> It will feel amazing, right?

>> That's right.

>> Delayed gratification -- how does that play into dopamine -- delaying?

>> Yeah.

>> Like the marshmallow test.

>> Yeah, yeah.

Well, it stimulates it, because you're keeping the thing you want in the future.

It's like the advice that mothers used to give their daughters in the past -- "Don't have sex until after marriage, because the guy's going to lose interest," right?

Where, if you say, "Hey, you got to wait," that's delayed gratification.

That's going to keep dopamine expecting, anticipating, exciting.

So, yeah, delayed gratification is a good way to boost up dopamine.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> So, is it better to -- Let's say I want a cookie, right?

And I say, "You know what?

I'm gonna wait a month until I have a cookie or a candy bar or cake or whatever."

>> Yeah.

>> "I'm gonna wait a month, and I'm gonna think about it, I'm gonna imagine it, I'm gonna, you know, think of the taste of this cookie."

But the only way for me to get this cookie is if I work out five days a week for a month.

Let's say I make this game up.

>> Yeah.

>> What is that going to do for myself, as opposed to I'm going to have a cookie every day.

>> So, when you are happy about something that's going to happen, it makes you feel excited, energized.

Maybe it makes you feel strong and powerful and confident.

>> Like, you know it's coming.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> When you're happy because you have something, it makes you feel satisfied and fulfilled.

And it's like, "Ahh."

>> Mmm.

>> And those are very different feelings.

>> Sure.

>> Some people like one more than the other; you know, others like the other.

>> Where -- How much dopamine comes in either form?

>> With the second, there is zero dopamine.

It turns off.

>> Once you get something -- once you get an award, once you get the cookie, once you buy something -- within minutes, dopamine turns off.

>> Turns off.

>> Because you already have it now.

>> Because now it's in the peripersonal.

>> Interesting.

>> And dopamine doesn't function in peripersonal.

>> Really?

>> And so, for some people, that's a moment of disappointment.

You have to suffer through the bad moments, and live those suffering bad moments.

That's part of life.

>> My final question for you is, what's your definition of greatness?

>> I think it is how much happiness you create in other people.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

Continue on the journey of greatness with me.

Please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course Find Your Greatness is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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