Howes: Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur, And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr.

Caroline Fleck, psychologist, Stanford instructor, and best-selling author.

Today, she's here to teach the communication skill of validation and why it's the most important communication tool for you to transform your relationships, increase your influence in life, and change your overall life.

Fleck: People can tell when you are listening and coming up with your rebuttal.

You have to listen in such a way that projects curiosity, and we know how to do that.

If I'm sitting across from someone and you're talking to me, the game I'm playing in my head is figure out this kind of two-part riddle.

What's your point, and how do I improve upon it?

Howes: So, validate their point first.

And then if you're trying to influence or persuade to seeing something differently, how do you move them in that direction?

So, let's dive in, and let the class begin.

♪♪ All the work you've done, all the skills that you've taught -- what's one skill that people could use in the real world to help them transform their life?

Fleck: Validation.

So, I -- and validation is a set of skills, really.

So, you learn -- as a clinician, you're trained in these skills to help you communicate acceptance, to help you help another person feel seen and heard.

This is very important if you want to get people to listen to you and to collaborate with you and to work with you, okay?

And there's a science to this.

Like, this is -- we've researched, what is the most effective way?

How can you signal acceptance?

And as therapists, you're trained in this method.

Howes: Because if you don't validate a patient, they're not going to trust and believe you, what you're saying, they're going to feel unseen, unheard, like you don't understand them.

Fleck: For the longest time, we didn't have treatments that worked for folks who were what we call treatment resistant.

And the discovery, the fascinating insight was that if you want to help people make profound changes, you need to help them feel deeply accepted.

Howes: Really?

What if there's someone that you don't understand because you don't think the way they think, they have completely opposite viewpoints?

Fleck: The skills that we learn, you start out with just a couple that basically signal engagement, that help me engage and help me listen in a way that will foster understanding and empathy.

Okay?

But here's the thing.

I don't have to validate the entirety of someone's experience.

Howes: Okay.

Fleck: I'm not saying I agree with your thoughts, but I see the validity in your feeling, and I can attend to that.

Does that make sense?

So, like that is critical because what we tend to focus on is behavior that we don't like, we don't agree with, and we fail to attend to the valid emotions behind it.

Howes: What would you say then, is the step-by-step process for making someone feel seen and validated?

Fleck: Essentially, validation conveys mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that makes the other person feel accepted.

So, at the bare minimum, if I don't understand or empathize with someone, all I can do is be mindful and engaged.

And to be mindful, you need to project non-judgment.

So, it's not just listening.

Okay?

Because people can tell when you are listening and coming up with your rebuttal and your counterargument or your judgments.

So, you have to listen in such a way that projects curiosity.

And we know how to do that.

All right?

You use specific nonverbals, and you play this little game in your head, which is amazing and super effective.

If I'm sitting across from someone, the game I'm playing in my head is to solve or figure out this kind of two-part riddle.

What's your point, why do you care about it, and how do I improve upon it?

So, in my mind, I'm thinking, just how do I make this point better than you're making it now?

It's kind of like when you're in a debate and you have to argue a position you don't necessarily agree with, right?

Like, why you should smoke and you're just in the -- your job is just to kind of formulate the best argument you can.

That's essentially what you're doing.

So, you start asking questions to try and understand their position better.

Doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with what the other person is saying or whatever.

They're just trying to crystallize that message, and that informs how they listen and then the questions they ask.

And without fail, there's a sense of genuine curiosity there because it's genuinely there.

Howes: Yeah.

But if there's someone that you're working with -- whether it's an elite executive or someone who's suicidal -- and they're trying to make a point, in your mind, you know that's not what they need to be thinking about.

It's actually hurting them or blocking them from creating what they want.

Fleck: Sure.

Howes: How do you play the game of validating their point when you know it's hurting them, or it's a false belief around something, or it's not the truth that's going to support them in setting them free emotionally, psychologically?

How do you play that game and then empower them to think a different way?

Fleck: Okay, so, as I'm playing that game, I'm just asking, at this level, it's just kind of mindful awareness that I'm projecting here.

And as I'm listening, I am hearing the emotion.

I am starting to make connections in my head.

I am looking for what is the kernel of truth in what this person is saying?

Where is this coming from?

What is the feeling behind this?

But importantly, validation does not require agreement.

I'm a vegetarian, but I could validate why somebody would choose to eat meat.

That doesn't mean I agree with them.

I just see the validity in their argument, and I can focus on that instead of the part that I disagree with.

And importantly, if I focus on that first, the conversation around perhaps changing their opinion is much more likely to be successful.

Howes: So, validate their point first.

Fleck: Validate the valid.

Yeah.

Howes: And then, if you're trying to influence or persuade to seeing something differently, how do you move them in that direction?

That's when I pivot to more, like, behavioral stuff, okay?

So, that would be, you know, we have all sorts of reinforcement shaping that we do to try and kind of nudge the person in the other direction.

But the interesting thing is the person will just be more receptive to you.

You're curious.

They absorb that curiosity.

So, one of the other mindfulness skills we use here -- there's that attending one, and then there's copying, which sounds so weird, but let me tell you, if you are, like, up at night, you can't sleep, Google the research on mimicry or copying.

It is fascinating stuff, like simply copying another person's body language, okay?

Howes: Does it get too weird if you're copying everything?

Fleck: It does, it does.

Howes: Like, I scratch, you scratch.

I switch my feet, you switch your feet.

Fleck: Yeah it does.

Howes: I shift, you shift.

Fleck: It would, but here's the thing.

So, as soon as I -- If we were talking, and I was starting to feel like, oh, this isn't going well, I would in my head just say, like, copy.

Howes: For you to copy me?

Fleck: For me to copy you.

Howes: Okay.

Fleck: I just tell myself, copy.

As a result of copying your expression and your body language, I will start to feel I will start to taste some of what you are experiencing.

Howes: Mm.

Fleck: All right?

That is how mirror neurons function.

We are designed to copy.

Babies mimic the facial expressions of people, of their parents and caregivers.

When we're attracted to people or we want to impress them or we like them, we naturally copy them.

Howes: Uh-huh.

Fleck: When we sense threat, we tend to close up.

And interestingly, those are the moments -- oftentimes conflict, right -- where connection would serve you best.

It's just not what we're wired to do.

Howes: Yeah, because we're in the defense.

Fleck: That's right.

Howes: We're guarding, protective.

Fleck: So, this is what I'm saying about how you use these entry skills to cultivate more understanding and empathy.

And that is how you move to higher levels of validation.

Because my full-time job is working with people who are saying, doing, and believing things that are distorted to the extent of being pathological.

And if these skills work in those situations -- Howes: Or it's not -- Fleck: ...their potential when the stakes are much lower and folks are much more rational is significantly greater.

Howes: Yeah, but if someone's extremely combative or in a completely different world like that, how do you walk them off the edge?

I mean, not physically, but how do you walk them off the edge, I guess, pull them back into a place of, like, getting back into a reality.

Fleck: At that point, what I would start doing, genuinely, is actually to copy back.

"Okay, so, let me get this right.

I want to make sure I've got this.

You e-mailed me yesterday.

From your perspective, this should have been a signal to me that you were in crisis."

Howes: Mm-hmm.

Fleck: Okay.

I -- okay.

And I need to be careful not to say, "That wasn't in your e-mail."

Just like, "So, right now, I got it.

You're feeling like I totally betrayed you.

Like I'm intentionally trying to hurt you.

That is not what happened.

Not from my -- Can I share my perspective?

It's okay if you don't want me to, because that could sound offensive.

Howes: Or it's not -- Fleck: But I really I-I -- I'm -- I'm -- it hurts my heart that there was this miscommunication."

Now, here's the thing.

It's acceptance and change, not acceptance or change.

They are two sides of the same coin.

So, I can validate.

And then, once there's -- Once I see that that has resonated, I switch gears.

Howes: Okay.

Fleck: "But let's look at this for a second.

If you keep responding to people in this way, when they miss a message from you, I'm worried you're going to start burning people out.

Because the other thing I felt just now was attacked and scared and not in a good way.

All right?

Is there anything we could have done, do you think, that could have brought down the intensity just a little bit so you could give me that message, but not, you know, make me want to hide under the couch?"

Howes: Wow.

Fleck: So, that's it.

That's that combination.

You see how I'm going from validation to change?

Howes: Sure.

Interesting.

Fleck: Right?

Howes: You know, in a world of 8 billion plus people, the thing we want the most is validation.

It's the thing we want the most is to be acknowledged, to be seen, and to be accepted freely, which is being validated of our existence.

Fleck: Uh-huh.

Howes: It's like, "You're alive.

I see you."

And then there's different levels of validation.

It's like I see you that you're a human being.

And I see that the suffering you're going through.

I see the greatness or the goodness in you.

I see the kind acts you're generating with the world.

I see that you're a good friend.

It's like, I see that you're a good employee.

All these different things.

Fleck: Or at the top, I see myself in you.

There's a sameness.

Howes: Connection.

Fleck: There's connection.

And I would actually go a step further with valid, you know, how critical validation is.

It sounds, like, controversial.

I see that, but I think it is more important than love.

I think you cannot have true love in the absence of having been and having consistently been validated.

Howes: So, love is not enough?

Fleck: No, you can love a facade, but that doesn't feel good.

I can, you know, create all these stories about myself and, you know, filter this and filter that and get all sorts of likes and praise, which is a positive judgment.

Praise says, "I like how you look," or "I like how you perform."

Validation says, "I accept you independent of how you look or perform."

Okay?

In the absence of feeling seen, feeling accepted, it's hard to feel deeply loved.

We don't -- I mean, we haven't been vulnerable.

We haven't shown ourselves or we have, and the other person has been like, "Oh, that's weird."

And we shut that down.

Howes: Yeah.

Fleck: Right?

And so, they love the parts of us that we've shown or dressed up, but perhaps not the entirety of who we are.

Howes: What would be the next level of validation?

Fleck: To show some degree of understanding.

Right?

And usually this is like logical understanding.

Cognitive understanding.

"I can see how you got there."

Right?

And there's a couple skills here.

You can do the "Anyone in your shoes would feel that way," right?

Howes: As opposed to saying, "I can understand where you're coming from," you'd say, "Anyone in your shoes."

Is that what -- Fleck: You can do, "Anyone in your shoes."

A way more effective way to do it is like, "Oh, my God, yes, I would be so anxious, too."

Like, "Me, too."

If you think about going to a doctor and them saying, like, if you're like, "yeah, I don't know, I think I might -- I don't know if I should get a second opinion."

"You should absolutely get a second opinion.

If it was my child, that's what I would do."

Right?

We're like, "Mmm, yummy.

That feels good."

Right?

There's this sense of like, okay, I'm -- I'm valid.

What I'm thinking is valid.

It's reasonable.

I'm not being dramatic.

I'm not being X, Y, or Z. Howes: Yes.

Fleck: That's kind of what... what these understanding skills communicate.

One of them happens to double as a Jedi mind trick.

I've just got to warn you.

Howes: What's that?

Fleck: Proposing?

Howes: Mm?

What's proposing?

Fleck: Proposing is when -- you know how I was playing that little game in my head earlier where I'm trying to figure out, like, you know, what are you -- what are you thinking?

Why does this matter to you?

I don't actually communicate any of that.

This is all just in my head to keep me engaged.

But if I come up with some stuff, I can throw it out there and see what sticks.

I can propose something you haven't said.

All right?

It's also known as, like, mind reading.

That's articulating something the person hasn't said.

And if you're really good, if you really nail it, perhaps you facilitate an insight that they didn't even have.

Howes: And you might be wrong, but if you're feeling it and you throw out, "Okay, what about this, this, or this?"

Maybe your intuition picks up on one of them and it's like, "Oh, my God, you understand me.

You're reading my mind."

Fleck: So, this is such a critical point.

I'm glad you dialed in on that because I can't emphasize enough, these are skills, all right?

And to develop any skill, you've got to strike out.

Right?

Howes: Yeah.

Fleck: Usually, we tend to really internalize the feedback and get shut down or feel rejected or like, oh, God, I'm just going to make things worse.

And that is a mistake.

You have to look at these things as skills that you develop.

Howes: So, that's the mindfulness part of this ladder.

Attending and conquering.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: But when you propose something, it's like you're trying to understand them.

Fleck: You're trying to show that you understand.

That's right.

Howes: By proposing, "Oh, when you were feeling this, when you had your, you know, your child.

I'm assuming it was a lot of anxiety, but also a lot of joy at one point."

And maybe it can be like, "No, it was a nightmare.

Like, the whole 24 hours was not joyful.

And I thought the baby was gonna come and I was gonna have this connection, and I didn't."

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: Right?

Some women say that.

Fleck: Yes.

Howes: Another women was like, "It was amazing, this spiritual moment.

And then brought him to my chest, and I felt one with my child."

Fleck: Yeah.

Great example.

Howes: It's like showing a few different options, but you might be wrong.

Fleck: Now here's the thing, though.

And the perfect example, what most people do in that first scenario, when they said, "Oh, you must have been so excited," and the person goes, "Actually, no, I was -- I struggled with postpartum depression."

They go... "Mm?

Really?

Oh."

Howes: Next topic.

Fleck: Yeah.

They're like, "Okay, I don't get it.

I don't want to make things worse."

And that is the biggest mistake.

You've got to stay in the game.

Just take it as feedback.

Clearly you weren't paying close enough attention.

So, go back to those two skills, keep working them, and then -- Howes: Start again and ask questions again.

Fleck: Yeah, yeah.

Howes: Copying.

Oh, tell me, what was that like?

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: Yeah.

Fleck: And so, this is like, you know, I talk about each of these skills individually, but the real skill is being able to kind of like move between these things.

Howes: Interesting.

Fleck: And know how to correct, course correct.

Howes: So, what would you say then is the difference between validation and persuasion or influencing someone?

Fleck: Uh-huh.

Howes: Like, if you want to get something out of someone.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: Maybe not in a bad way, but you're trying to create an opportunity, try to create a connection.

You try to make an introduction.

You're trying to get a deal, whatever it might be.

What's the difference between validating versus persuasion and influencing?

Well, the two are not mutually exclusive, in the sense that people are more easily influenced by those that they trust.

Influence is kind of a change agenda.

Like, I'm trying to push you in some direction, rather than the acceptance of just what is.

Howes: We are in relationship with others when we're around other people.

Whether we know it or not, we're either validating or not validating someone.

Fleck: Right.

Or at the worst, we're invalidating them.

Howes: Invalidating, right?

Fleck: Right.

Howes: And I would say that the quality of our life is related to our ability to validate effectively, it sounds like, with the people in our life, right?

Friends, family, teams, employees, bosses, whatever it is, if we're not attending and listening, if we're not able to contextualize or propose opportunities for people, then we're probably not going to be enjoying our relationships that well.

Fleck: Yeah.

That's right.

Howes: We're going to be struggling.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: What is the next level of validation that you talked about?

Fleck: At the top, you've got these empathy skills and they communicate mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in one fell swoop.

This is powerful stuff.

It's also at, like, the top of this, if you visualize a ladder.

So, you can imagine when you fall down from a high position, it hurts.

Howes: Yes.

Fleck: So, if you strike out with these, it can be a little ugly, all right?

With validation, you want to go as high as you can, authentically and effectively.

So, if I get it right away, I could go pretty -- You know, I could go for it.

Howes: Right.

Fleck: Yeah.

But if I don't have rapport with the person... Howes: But you got to try stuff.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: And you can be authentic, too, like, if you're really feeling the sadness of what someone's going through, you want to emote and connect with that person and say, "Man, I'm so sorry you're going through that."

Fleck: That's right.

Howes: You don't want to be a robot and say, "Okay, now tell me the next thing."

Fleck: And unfortunately, I think that's where we've kind of been pushed in society, and especially with all of, like, the facades and this, or we'll disclose, like, the things that are really trendy to disclose, you know, that you're struggling with this or that because everyone's talking about, I don't know, menopause now or something, right?

But the other stuff that's not trending.

Howes: What's acceptable in society right now to talk about.

Fleck: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But maybe the other stuff.

When someone hints at something they're going through that you've also gone through.

"But that's not something we talk about."

I think, unfortunately, most of us were raised on problem-solving.

When we came to our parents with a problem, they had a solution.

"Study more."

"Let's get you a tutor."

"Don't worry, you can try out next time."

This kind of impulse to make it better.

Howes: To fix.

Fleck: To fix.

And unfortunately, in the process, there's this subtle message that you shouldn't be feeling that way.

Stop feeling that way.

Okay?

Not "It's totally valid that you're disappointed.

I get it, man, I get it.

Oh, God.

I remember being your age.

Oh, I once failed a math test, but it was nothing compared to this."

But, like, and I couldn't even -- my mom came and picked me up from school.

I was crying.

"I can't believe you made it through the day."

We just were not raised on that.

And so it's no surprise that as adults, when we make a mistake, we struggle to see the validity in our emotions, our reactions.

We're not trained to do that.

Howes: It's such an interesting balance because I remember... I remember feeling, like, supported and encouraged, but also, like, told not to cry and, like, toughen up.

Fleck: You got those messages.

Yeah.

Howes: But it was like a mixture of both.

It was like sometimes it was like, "Okay, I'm here to hug and support and like, watch you cry,: and then other times, "Toughen up, don't cry."

It was like a -- it was a mixture of both.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: And so, it was always kind of confusing, like, what am I supposed to do?

Am I supposed to like, toughen up?

Am I supposed to show emotion as a kid?

And we can't all be, like, crying all day long as adults, also.

It's like we have to be able to regulate emotions and process and, like, have some thicker skin in some scenarios, so we're not just like every little thing triggers us and makes us react emotionally.

Our nervous system needs to be calm under chaos.

Fleck: Yes.

Howes: But also we need to be able to express ourselves when we're feeling certain feelings, right?

Fleck: Well, there's a difference between recognizing an emotion, realizing it's valid, and choosing to regulate it rather than express it.

All right?

So, I can -- there are plenty of times where I'll feel sad about something, and I'll start going down that loop.

You know, the story starts coming together of, like, why I suck and how I should have done something better.

You know, it makes sense that I'm -- I'm sad.

I was really looking forward to this.

Didn't come through.

This is upsetting.

Right now it's not going to be effective to focus on that.

I'm going to feel worse if I draw more attention to myself.

So, how can I take care of myself right now?

I probably just need to get through this.

And then when I get home, I'm going to take a hot bath.

Right?

So it's like -- Howes: And I can let it out.

I can express it how I need to.

Fleck: We have this fear that if we recognize our emotions, they will overtake us and, like, we'll just be at the mercy of them and express -- you know, kind of falling apart all over the place.

It's really the exact opposite.

When you see the validity and your emotions, you stop wrestling with them, okay?

And you get to be the pilot a bit more.

Howes: And if you suppress the emotion, then what happens?

Fleck: It just gets bigger because it gets hungrier.

It's like a child waiting -- trying to get your attention, isn't it, right?

Howes: Screams louder and louder.

If you stuff and stuff and stuff and try to contain it, it's going to react in some way.

Fleck: Mm-hmm.

Howes: Right?

Either whether it be energetically in your body, your nervous system.

Fleck: Yeah.

Howes: Eczema or some other condition later, right?

Fleck: Seriously.

Yeah.

Truly.

Howes: It's going to come out in some ways.

Fleck: That's right, that's right.

Howes: Or you're just going to have headaches or it's just going to be like, ah, I can't sleep and I'm ruminating.

It's going to be expressing itself internally until you express it externally.

Fleck: If you struggle with being alone, I think that's a real tell for the degree to which you are facing and at peace with your emotions.

Because when there's no one else around and your phone is dead and you're the only person you're with, if that is painful and uncomfortable and you can kind of feel things trying to, like, crawl out, that suggests that you're not quite at peace with yourself.

Howes: Mm.

So, how do we get at peace with ourselves?

Fleck: Practice a lot of self-validation.

Howes: Interesting.

Fleck: I mean, this is -- I go through these steps almost every single night in bed.

I go through these steps of like -- Howes: What's this process look like?

If we don't feel like anyone else in the world is validating us, what is the -- how many steps are there to self-validate?

Fleck: The first is to take action in some way to self soothe, okay?

Howes: Mm.

Fleck: So, I'm usually lying in bed when I do this.

So, I'll do like soft touch.

So, rubbing your shoulder, hand on the tummy, whatever it may be.

And then you got to pay that forward.

You got to do something with that negative energy.

So, if I'm -- if it's during the day, I would go and I've done all sorts of wild things to like, you know, everything from working out to fostering kittens, right?

Trying to just do something I wouldn't have done that day were it not for the suffering.

Howes: Couple final questions.

This question is called the Three Truths.

So, imagine a hypothetical scenario.

You get to live as long as you want to live in this life, and you get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish or experience everything you want to experience.

But it gets to the last day in your life, many years away.

And for whatever reason, on this last day, you have to take all of your work with you.

This book, we don't get to have, content, this interview, it's gone.

Hypothetical.

But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons with the world, three things you have experienced to be true in your life that you would leave behind.

Three messages.

What would be those three truths for you?

Fleck: Don't squander your suffering.

Validation is the path to love.

You are enough as you are.

Howes: Oh.

Fleck: Those would probably be the three.

Howes: That's beautiful.

I want to acknowledge you, Caroline, for the journey you've been on.

Fleck: Oh, thank you.

Howes: It's been a -- it's been a wild one.

But I want to acknowledge you for taking the journey when you were, you know, in your teens and in college to say, "How can I find a solution for me," yourself, "to get out of this pain and suffering, to create more sense of peace and order inside of me so I can help others around me?

And for the last, you know, 15 plus years, you've been in service, researching and helping others find validation and peace within them.

So, I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on, for helping so many people, for saving lives, literally, so that others can have the skills and the tools to validate themselves and others and create that sense of peace in a world that might be suffering for them.

So, I acknowledge you for this journey.

Fleck: Thank you.

Howes: Yeah.

Of course.

My final question, Caroline, what's your definition of greatness?

Fleck: In a non-judgmental way, just always striving to do better the next day for the world and for yourself.

Howes: Caroline, thanks for being here.

If today's conversation moved you, there's so much more where that came from.

Make sure to scan the QR code on the screen, or visit greatness.com/tv to follow "The School of Greatness" podcast and sign up for our free newsletter.

And stay tuned for more episodes on "The School of Greatness" right here on public television.

Again, my name is Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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