>>> MEANTIME IN A MAJOR VICTORY FOR NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD KEY PROVISIONS OF THE INDIAN CHILD WELFARE ACT GIVING PREFERENCE TO THE ADOPTION OF NATIVE AMERICAN CHILDREN TO THEIR TRIBES AND FAMILIES.

THE LAW WAS PASSED 45 YEARS AGO TO PROTECT TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY AND CORRECT PAST GOVERNMENT ABUSES.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS RETELLING THE STORY OF AMERICA TO READ INCLUDE NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY.

NED BLACKHAWK IS RESHAPING UNDERSTANDINGS IN HIS NEW BOOK.

>> NED BLACKHAWK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE TACKLING AN ENORMOUS TASK HERE WITH THIS BOOK, WHICH IS TO TRY TO REFRAME AMERICAN HISTORY BY MOVING MORE TO THE CENTER, NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FIRST OF ALL, WHY THIS CHALLENGE IS NECESSARY.

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT GENEROUS RECOGNITION.

I AM TRYING TO DO SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN A CONCERN OF MINE FOR A WHILE, AND THAT IS TO PROVIDE A SINGLE VOLUME, SYNTHETIC OVERVIEW OF NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY THAT TRIES TO DO SO THROUGH CONVENTIONAL SUBJECTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, AND DOES SO BY BUILDING UPON WHAT I CALL THE REDISCOVERY OF AMERICA, WHICH IS A GENERATION OF ACADEMIC AND TRIBAL AND OTHER SCHOLARLY PURSUITS THAT HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY REALIGNED HOW WE SHOULD THINK AND SEE AMERICAN HISTORY, BUT A LOT OF THOSE STUDIES AND FINDINGS HAVE YET TO BE BROUGHT TOGETHER IN A SINGLE VOLUME.

>> ONE THING YOU POINT OUT IS LITERALLY WITH THE WORD DISCOVERY, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF OUR HISTORY IS WRITTEN AND FRAMED BY THE NOTION THAT THE WESTERN EXPLORERS, THE CIVILIZED , WERE THE ONES WHO DISCOVERED AMERICA, AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU ARE ADVOCATING FOR IN THIS BOOK, REALLY, IS LET'S CHANGE THAT WORD.

TO WHAT?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD THINK MORE ABOUT ENCOUNTER AS A PARADIGM FOR UNDERSTANDING OUR NATIONS HISTORY RATHER THAN DISCOVERY IN THE BOOK IS ENTITLED REDISCOVERY TO PLAYOFF THE CONVENTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF AMERICA HAVING BEEN DISCOVERED IN 1492 BY EUROPEAN EXPLORERS, AND THE IDEA THAT WE ARE STANDING NOW, PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE RELATIVELY STILL EARLY 21st CENTURY AT A KIND OF PRECIPICE WHERE WE CAN, IN FACT, TURN ANEW TO OUR CONTINENCE HISTORY AND SEE IT IN A NEW WAY.

WE CAN REDISCOVER AMERICAN HISTORY BY ENGAGING THE SUBJECT AND DRAWING UPON THIS GENERATION OF SCHOLARS I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT, OR THAT I AM REFERENCING.

>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE, WHEN WE ARE THINKING ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY, HOW WE EITHER SIDELINE MARGINALIZED OR FORGET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY HERE.

>> WELL, IN A FEW WEEKS, WE WILL CELEBRATE OUR INDEPENDENCE ON THE FOURTH OF JULY, AND IT IS REALLY QUITE SHOCKING, I THINK, FOR MANY AMERICAN STUDENTS CITIZENS AND OTHER CONCERNED CIVIC LEADERS TO LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE DECLARATION IS IN MANY WAYS, AND INCITEMENT OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE AMERICANS AND THE LAST CONCERN THAT THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS AUTHORIZES IN THE DECLARATION IS A GRIEVANCE AGAINST THE KING FOR INCITING MERCILESS INDIAN SAVAGES, IS THEIR TERM, AND THAT IS THE KIND OF CULMINATING CONCLUSION TO CHAPTER 5 OF THIS BOOK, WHICH IS ON THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION.

WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT FUNDAMENTALLY RECOGNIZING THAT REALLY KEY ELEMENTAL MOMENTS OF NATIONAL FORMATION -- THE REVOLUTION, THE CONSTITUTION, THE CIVIL WAR ERA, THE RISE OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE FOR POLITICAL AMERICAN STATE OF THE 19th CENTURY, INDIAN AFFAIRS AND INDIAN PEOPLES WERE CENTRAL CONCERNS TO AMERICAN POLICYMAKERS AND THOSE WORDS ARE LITERALLY FOUND IN OUR NATION'S MOST CHERISHED AND OFTEN RECITED DOCUMENTS.

>> YOU WRITE, TO UNDERSTAND THE REVOLUTION WITHOUT AMERICAN INDIANS IS LIKE A ONE-HANDED CLAP.

WALK US THROUGH HOW THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO SETTLE THIS LAND AND NATIVE AMERICANS WAS A PRECURSOR TO THEIR DISCONTENT WITH THE BRITISH.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS A HISTORY THAT IS REALLY UNDERSTUDIED AND UNKNOWN OUTSIDE OF SOME RELATIVELY SMALL ACADEMIC CIRCLES AROUND 18 CENTURY AMERICAN HISTORY.

THERE WAS A MONUMENTAL CONFLICT IN THE MID-1750S THAT SPREAD ACROSS NOT JUST NORTH AMERICA, BUT MUCH OF THE EUROPEAN ATLANTIC AND PORTIONS OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THAT WAS THE SEVEN YEARS WAR.

IT BEGINS IN THE INTERIOR OF NORTH AMERICA AND ENDS EVEN FURTHER IN THE INTERIOR.

THE INTERIOR REGIONS WERE NOT HAPPY WITH THE REDDISH CROWN BECAUSE THE BRITISH CROWN IS ATTEMPTING DIPLOMATIC, TRADING AND OTHER VARIOUS TYPES OF INITIATIVES WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT EASILY COMPARABLE AND HAD YET TO BE CONQUERED SO THESE AMERICAN SELLERS IN THESE BACKCOUNTRY REGIONS HAVE AN ALMOST BURIAL AT ANTI- INDIGENOUS IDEOLOGIES FORMING AROUND BRITISH POLICIES AND THAT IS HOW THOSE SENTIMENTS ESSENTIALLY FIND THEIR WAY INTO THE DECLARATION BUT YOU KNOW, I SAY IT IS LIKE A ONE-HANDED CLAP, WHICH MEANS IT IS LIKE AN EXCITED BUT EMPTY GESTURE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND AN ERA IN WHICH INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS AND PEOPLES IN POWER WERE CENTRAL TO THE CONCERNS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY ERA.

>> YOU WRITE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PRESIDENT LINCOLN BUT [INDISCERNIBLE] RIDING THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND WHAT IS HAPPENING OUT IN THE DAKOTAS.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF LINCOLN AT THIS TIME, THAT WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT VERY OFTEN.

>> IT WAS ONE OF THESE REVELATORY MOMENTS WHEN I WAS READING STUDIES AND STUDIES OF THE SUBJECT AND COMING TO REALIZE THAT VERY FEW CONVENTIONAL HISTORIES OF THE CIVIL WAR RECOGNIZE THE CIVIL WAR NOT ONLY HAD A WESTERN THEATER TO IT, IN WHICH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF NATIVE AMERICANS EITHER FOUGHT AND/OR WERE KILLED, BUT THERE WAS ALSO AN INCREDIBLE LEGACY IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE GROWTH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OVER THIS PART OF NORTH AMERICA, AND WE REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE ULTIMATE LEGACIES OF THE CIVIL WAR OR LINCOLN'S PRESIDENCY OUTSIDE OF THESE MONUMENTAL CONFLICTS AND TRANSFORMATIONS THAT ARE OCCURRING.

SO, THE DAKOTA WAR IN THE SUMMER OF 1862, WHICH IS FOLLOWED BY THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF SEVERAL THOUSAND DAKOTA PEOPLES FROM SOUTHERN MINNESOTA AND THE FORCED RELOCATION EVENTUALLY TO THAT IT WOULD INCLUDE THE LARGEST CONFLICT IN THE HISTORY OF 1862.

THAT WAS PART OF A SERIES OF EXTRAORDINARILY TRAUMATIC PAINS BETWEEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE INDIAN NATIONS THAT STRETCHED FROM RURAL CALIFORNIA ACROSS THE SOUTHWEST AND INCLUDES THE FIRST RELOCATION OF NEARLY 10,000 PEOPLE DURING THE LONG WALK, THE SETS OF HORRIFIC MASSACRES AT THE BEAR RIVER, AT SAND CREEK.

THESE ARE WELL-KNOWN IN THE HISTORY OF WESTERN AMERICA, BUT THEY GET TO BE REALLY BROAD TO SUFFICIENTLY UNDERSTAND IN THE CIVIL WAR ERA BECAUSE WHEN THEY DO YOU START SEEING BOTH THE CIVIL WAR AND THE WEST VERY DIFFERENTLY.

YOU START SEEING THAT THE CIVIL WAR WAS IN FACT, AN INCREDIBLY UNDETERMINED MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY IN WHICH VIOLENCE BECAME THE PRIMARY FORM OF SOCIAL CHANGE AND POWER.

THE CIVIL WAR ESSENTIALLY IS A CONTINENTAL WIDE CONFLICT OR STRUGGLE THAT HAS AN INHERENTLY INDIGENOUS WESTERN DIMENSION TO IT.

WE BEGIN THE SURGERY CALIBRATIONS.

>> WE HAVE RECENTLY AND COMING INTO [INDISCERNIBLE] THE SLAVE TRADE AND AFRICAN- AMERICANS AND HOW THAT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE SINS OF THE FOUNDING OF THIS NATION AND YOU WRITE IN YOUR BOOK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO IDENTIFY -- YOU SAY IDENTIFYING AMERICAN HISTORY IS THE SITE OF GENOCIDE COMPLICATES THE PREMISE OF THE AMERICAN STORY.

WHAT IS IT THAT I THINK YOU WISH WAS CENTRAL TO THE AMERICAN FOUNDING STORY THAT HAS BEEN OVERLOOKED?

>> I THINK THE REAL TAKE AWAY THAT I WOULD ENCOURAGE LISTENERS OR READERS OF THE TEXTS TO KIND OF CONSIDER IS DO WE HAVE A CAPACITY TO SEE OURSELVES BOTH DIFFERENTLY AND IN A SENSE, MORE HISTORICALLY, BECAUSE IF WE DO, WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE BOTH INDIGENOUS AS WELL AS IMPERIALIST SUBJECTS UPON THE EARLY AMERICAN LANDSCAPE.

WE HAVE TOO MANY KIND OF MYTHOLOGIES IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT THE CENTRALITY OF ENGLISH SETTLERS, PARTICULARLY IN NEW ENGLAND, THAT REALLY DISCOUNTS THE DIVERSITY EVEN OF THE BRITISH SUBJECTS THEMSELVES.

THERE WERE PEOPLE IN BARBADOS.

WE LOSE THE HETEROGENEITY OF THE SUBJECT AND FALL UPON RELATIVELY WELL RECEIVED AND SIMPLIFIED CATEGORIES OF ANALYSIS.

IF WE HAVE THAT KIND OF CAPACITY, IT IS NOT GOING TO YIELD INITIALLY THE KIND OF IMMEDIATE REVELATION THAT WE MAY BE HOPING FOR, BUT WE CAN SEE PAST THEM AND START SEEING HOW NUMEROUS MONUMENTS HAVE RECENTLY COME DOWN, THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS FINALLY ABANDONED ITS MYTHOLOGIZED STATE FLAG OF AN INDIAN WELCOMING PURITAN SETTLERS FROM 1620S.

THERE IS A KIND OF RECKONING HAPPENING THAT JUST WITH THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN SLAVERY AND ITS CENTRALITY IN AMERICA BUT ALSO WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF THE CONTINENT AND I AM HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN SOMEDAY BRING THESE TWO RECKONINGS ESSENTIALLY TOGETHER WITHIN A PUBLIC SPHERE TO DISCUSS OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY IN PRESENT AND NEW FORMS.

>> THERE IS ALSO A NEW CHAPTER IN AMERICAN HISTORY FOR THE CULTURAL ERADICATION OF NATIVE PEOPLES, THE FIRST ASSIMILATION , TAKING OF CHILDREN AND PUTTING THEM INTO THESE DIFFERENT BOARDING SCHOOLS.

TELL US A BIT ABOUT HOW LARGE- SCALE THAT WAS, HOW EFFECTIVE IT WAS AND REALLY, WHAT THE GOAL WAS.

>> THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT OF AMERICA POLITICAL CHANGE AND IT AFFECTS INDIANS IN CERTAIN WAYS MORE THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE'S BECAUSE THESE COMMUNITIES ARE BEING SIMULTANEOUSLY CONFINED AND THEN OFTEN SUBDIVIDED AND CHILDREN ARE BEING TAKEN FROM THEM.

AND SO, THIS IS THE KIND OF DOMINANT THEME OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THROUGHOUT THE LATE 1800S, SHORTLY AFTER RECONSTRUCTION CONCLUDES.

THERE ARE U.S. ARMY OFFICIALS WHO HAVE BEEN OUT WEST AND STATIONED AMONG THE INDIANS TO START REALIZING THAT THEIR CHARGES, THE PEOPLE THEY ARE SUPERVISING, LACK THE CAPACITY TO BECOME IMMEDIATELY INCORPORATED INTO THE UNION.

THERE ARE VERY FEW MISSIONARIES INITIALLY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE WEST AND VERY FEW SCHOOLS AND MILITARY OFFICIALS START TRYING TO FORCIBLY IMPOSE CERTAIN TYPES OF PEDAGOGY'S ON THEIR PRISONERS, AND THAT BECOMES A KIND OF MODEL OF PEDAGOGY THAT FORMS AT THE CARLISLE INDIAN INSTITUTE IN 1879 RUN BY FORMER MILITARY CAPTAIN RICHARD HENRY PRATT.

THIS MILITARY STYLE PEDAGOGY EVENTUALLY REACHES 40% OF ALL THE NATIONS INDIGENOUS CHILDREN, ROUGHLY 75,000 AMERICAN INDIAN CHILDREN ARE SENT TO THESE BOARDING SCHOOLS, WHICH ESSENTIALLY CHARACTERIZED POLICY FOR ABOUT A HALF A CENTURY AND YOU CAN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF THE 20th CENTURY WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING HOW EXTENSIVE, INFLUENTIAL AND HARMFUL THESE INSTITUTIONS BECAME BECAUSE THEY INSPIRED A GENERATION OF AMERICAN ACTIVISTS WHO TOOK AIM AT CHANGING THESE POLICIES, WHICH THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN DOING THROUGHOUT THE 20s AND INTO THE 30s.

THIS ANTI-ASSIMILATION IDEOLOGY AND ACTIVISION ACTIVISM OF NATIVE AMERICAN LEADERS HELPS ESTABLISH OTHER ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHIES ABOUT WET THE COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND WHAT SHOULD BE DOING IN THE SETS IN MOTION SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT REFORMS IN THE NEW DEAL ERA KNOWN AS THE INDIAN NEW DEAL, WHEN TRIBAL GOVERNMENTS START FORMING AND ADOPTING CONSTITUTIONS FOR THEMSELVES TO BE SELF GOVERNED.

>> WILL END OUR CONVERSATION MAYBE WITH THE FIRST WORDS FROM YOUR BOOK, AND HOW CAN A NATION FOUNDED ON THE HOMELANDS OF DISPOSSESSED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES BE THE WORLD'S MOST EXEMPLARY DEMOCRACY?

>> I THINK THAT IS CORRECTED IN THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNT THAT WE ALL READ AND HEAR ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS A SOBERING KIND OF QUERY THAT OPENS THIS PROJECT, BUT ONE WITH A KIND OF HOPEFUL, IF NOT OPTIMISTIC SENTIMENT THAT WE DO HAVE THE CAPACITY WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT OUR NATION'S HISTORY DIFFERENTLY AND MORE THOROUGHLY, TO SEE WITHIN IT AN ALTERNATIVE UNDERSTANDING OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND NATIONHOOD IN WHICH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES CAN AND SHOULD BE CENTRALLY INCLUDED.

FAR FROM BEING SAVAGES, NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES HAVE BECOME ONE OF THE MOST RESILIENT, ADAPTIVE AND IN MANY PLACES, VISIBLE SOCIAL COMMUNITIES WITHIN OUR NATIONAL FABRIC.

CAN WE FIND A WAY TO THINK OF OUR DEMOCRATIC PRACTICES, OUR CORPORATE DOCTRINES AND JURISDICTIONAL CONFLICTS DIFFERENTLY, THAT UNDERSTANDS NATIVE NATIONS AS DISTINCT, SOVEREIGN COMMUNITIES WITHIN A LARGER FABRIC OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY?

THAT WOULD BE THE KIND OF HOPE I WOULD RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION WITH.

>> NED BLACKHAWK, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "THE REDISCOVERY OF NATIVE AMERICAN PEOPLES AND THEIR UNMAKING. "

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.