>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> FOR RUSSIA TO LOSE THIS CAMPAIGN TO UKRAINE I WOULD SAY ACTUALLY MEANS LOSING THE WAR.

>> UKRAINE CLAIMS PARTIAL SUCCESS IN ITS COUNTEROFFENSIVE BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR ANY PROSPECT OF PEACE?

I ASK UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES KINGDOM, VADYM PRYSTAIKO.

>>> AND THEN, ART AS DISSENT.

CHINA ACCUSED OF TRYING TO SHUT DOWN A NEW EXHIBITION SATIRIZING ITS LEADER.

I TALKED TO THE CHINESE AUSTRALIAN ARTIST BEHIND IT KNOWN AS BADIUCAO.

ALSO AHEAD >>> WE DO HAVE THE CAPACITY BY LOOKING AT OUR NATIONS HISTORY DIFFERENTLY AND MORE THOROUGHLY TO SEE WHAT IS IN IT.

>> REDISCOVERING AMERICA, A NEW BOOK PUTTING NATIVE AMERICANS AT THE CENTER OF U.S. HISTORY.

>>> PLUS WE REMEMBER GLENDA JACKSON WITH A LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S INTERVIEW WITH THE OSCAR-WINNING BRITISH POLITICIAN AND ACTRESS.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

RUSSIA WANTS MORE WAR, NOT PEACE.

THAT IS WHAT UKRAINE'S FOREIGN MINISTER SAYS AFTER KYIV FACED WHAT HE SAID WAS THE LARGEST MISSILE ATTACK IN WEEKS.

VLADIMIR PUTIN TODAY CONFIRMED THAT THE FIRST TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO BE STORED IN BELARUS HAVE ARRIVED THERE.

MEANWHILE LEADERS ARE IN UKRAINE ON A PEACE MISSION.

NEXT OFF FOR THOSE REPRESENTATIVES IS RUSSIA THIS WEEKEND.

THE MESSAGE FROM THE KREMLIN TODAY, THAT THE RUSSIAN LEADERS SUPPORT QUOTE, ANY SET OF IDEAS TO END THE CONFLICT, BUT INTERNATIONAL LEGAL EXPERTS SAY IT IS HIGHLY LIKELY THAT RUSSIA WAS BEHIND THE COLLAPSE OF THE DAM.

ALL OF THIS AS UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY CONTINUES TO APPEAL FOR WEAPONS FOR THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

EARLIER TODAY I SPOKE TO THE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED KINGDOM, VADYM PRYSTAIKO, ABOUT THE LATEST ON THAT CAMPAIGN.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

I WANT TO BEGIN THIS CONVERSATION BY ASKING YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS BLOOMBERG HEADLINE THAT IS REPORTING THAT IN THE ST. PETERSBURG FORUM, PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS SAID THAT THE COUNTRY IS TRANSFER THEIR FIRST NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO BELARUS.

>> THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS SITUATION AND BY THIS GESTURE, BY THIS STEP HE IS DESTROYING WHAT IS LEFT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND AGREEMENTS.

WE WERE LAYING DOWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND DETERRING.

WE WILL BE DEFENDED AGAINST ANYBODY WHO CAN COME TO US.

RUSSIANS OBVIOUSLY [INDISCERNIBLE] IS JUST ANOTHER VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS.

I BELIEVE THE WEST HAS TO TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY.

>> DOES UKRAINE VIEW THIS AS A SIGN, A WARNING FROM POOH PRESS AS A THREAT THAT HE COULD USE TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE MONTHS AHEAD?

>> I BELIEVE ALL OF OUR PARTNERS AROUND THE GLOBE, AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF HE IS CORNERED, HE WILL USE SOME ACE LIKE IN THIS CASE, THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND THAT IS WHAT HE IS DOING.

HE IS BRINGING TO BELARUS OR AT LEAST PROMISING TO BRING TO BELARUS BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT NOW WE ARE MUCH BETTER EQUIPPED TO WITHSTAND THIS PRESSURE WITH ALL THESE ANTIAIR MISSILES FROM OUR PARTNERS.

WE ARE DOWNING EVERYTHING SOMETIMES ON THE LEVEL OF 100% SO HE ASKED TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WHAT HE IS PLAYING SOME WHO KNOWS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

IT APPEARS WE ARE AT THE END OF WEEK ONE OR TWO OF THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE AND IT IS UNUSUAL HOW LONG UKRAINE HAS BEEN ON ANY OF THE INROADS IT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE MADE AT THIS POINT AND CHARACTERISTICALLY RUSSIA HAS BEEN PUBLICLY CLAIMING THAT UKRAINE HAS NOT BEEN SUCCESSFUL THUS FAR.

GIVE US THE CURRENT STATE OF THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

>> OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY KNEW IT WOULD COME AS SOON AS WE WERE SOLID ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND THE TANKS.

IT'S NOT A BIG SECRET WE WERE WAITING FOR THE PERFECT MOMENT.

THEY HAVE NOT ENGAGED AND COMMITTED ALL THE FORCES WE HAVE.

WE ARE TRYING TO FIND THE BEST PLACE FOR THAT TIME.

THE DAM THAT WAS DESTROYED BY RUSSIANS HAS CHANGED OUR CURRENCY A BIT.

WE HAVE TO REPLAN OUR OPERATION BECAUSE IT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE FOR THE HEAVY EQUIPMENT, SO THIS IS DELAYING OUR COUNTEROFFENSIVE BUT I GUESS THE RUSSIANS HAVE TO WAIT JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS MORE.

>> IS IT FAIR TO SAY THIS IS STILL THE PROBING STAGE?

WE KNOW UKRAINE IS NOT COMMITTED THE BULK OF ITS FORCES YET.

EARLY GAINS ARE CLEARLY NOT INSIGNIFICANT, BUT WE HAVE SEEN IMAGES OF DAMAGED BRADLEY ARMORED VEHICLES AS WELL AS LEOPARD TANKS IN THESE OFFENSES ALREADY SUGGESTING THAT HEAVIER MORE EQUIPPED WEAPONS ARE BEING USED.

>> THIS IS TRUE.

WE ARE NOW PROMISE THAT WE WILL COME AND GO ALL THE WAY WITHOUT LOSING SOME TANKS OR SOME PORTION OF PEOPLE, AS WELL.

THIS IS PAINFUL TO SEE BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE SEEN A COUPLE OF THESE PIECES DEPLOYED AND RETURNED BACK TO THE FRONT LINES.

THERE IS NO PERFECT SOLUTION.

THIS BATTLE WILL COST US A LOT AND WHAT WE ARE GAINING ARE JUST PRELIMINARY ATTACKS ALLOWING US TO UNDERSTAND.

ALL OF THIS HAS VERY MUCH A POLITICAL MEANING AND POLITICAL VALUE.

I UNDERSTAND THE EXPECTATIONS ARE HIGH BUT THIS IS SOMETIMES PLAYING THE GAME ON US AND OUR PARTNERS AROUND THE GLOBE.

WE WANT THEM TO BE CAREFUL AND PATIENT WITH US.

THIS IS NOT THE LAST COUNTEROFFENSIVE WE MIGHT HAVE WITH RUSSIA.

ALSO UNDERSTAND THE PICTURESQUE SORT OF SUCCESS WILL ENERGIZE ASSISTANCE AROUND THE GLOBE.

THAT IS WHAT WE NEED.

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A RETURN ON THE INVESTMENT REVIEW WE HAVE TO GET MORE TANKS TO ALLOW US [INDISCERNIBLE] >> YOU HAVE MADE THIS POINT ABOUT BEING A BIT FRUSTRATED WITH THE LEVEL OF EXPECTATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN SET FOR MANY IN THE MEDIA AND MANY OF UKRAINE'S SUPPORTERS IN TERMS OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE, PERHAPS SETTING THE BAR AS HIGH AS WHAT WE SAW AROUND KHARKIV.

SHOULD PEOPLE EXPECT TO SEE MORE OF WHAT HAPPENED AROUND KHERSON, AND HOW WORRIED ARE YOU AT THE POSSIBILITY THAT CONTINUED SUPPORT REALLY HINGES ON THE OUTCOME OF THIS SPECIFIC COUNTEROFFENSIVE?

>> EVEN THE CURSE ON KHERSON OPERATION WAS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY CITY RUSSIANS WERE ABLE TO GET FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR SO THE FACT THAT THEY GOT BACK OUT OF IT PRESERVING THEIR LIVES [INDISCERNIBLE] OR AIM OF THIS WHOLE WAR IS NOT TO KILL MAXIMAL RUSSIAN SOLDIERS WERE MAXIMUM RUSSIAN TANKS.

IT'S TO GET THEM OUT OF OUR LAND AND THEN DECIDE HOW WE LIVE WITH THEM FOR CENTURIES TO COME.

THE KHARKIV OPERATION I AGREE WITH YOU, IT WAS SPECTACULAR THAT THE RUSSIANS ALSO ARE LEARNING FROM THEIR OWN MISTAKES.

I GUESS THIS OPERATION WILL ALLOW THEM TO DIG REALLY DEEP AND PREPARE THEIR DEFENSES.

WE HAVE TO BE MUCH SMARTER.

WE DON'T WANT TO REPEAT THEIR LOSSES WHICH THEY HAD IN BAKHMUT WHEN THERE TANKS ARE GOING THROUGH LANDS OF MINDS.

WE HAVE TO BE MUCH MORE CLEVER.

>> IT DOES APPEAR THAT RUSSIA APPEARS TO BE MORE COMPETENT IN TERMS OF DEFENSE AS OPPOSED TO THEIR OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS EARLIER IN THIS YEAR.

HOW MUCH OF A GAME CHANGER WOULD ADDITIONAL LONG-RANGE MISSILES AND MORE F-16S OR ANY F-16S AT THIS POINT, REALLY BE AT THIS STAGE OF THE BATTLE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE STRENGTH OF ANY DEFENSIVE FORCES IS LOGISTICS.

[INDISCERNIBLE] THE TRAINED SOLDIERS AND NUMBERS OF THEM ARE IMPORTANT BUT HOW FAST YOU BRING IN THE ARTILLERY SHELLS TO THE FRONT LINES AND ALLOWING YOUR FORCES TO SHOOT AT THE COMING OFFENSIVE.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO RESOLVE.

WE WILL NEED SOMEBODY ELSE, OUR PARTNERS, TO COME, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, WITH SOME SOLUTION THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO TARGET ANYTHING ON OUR OWN TERRITORY.

IT WAS NOT -- THE RUSSIAN ATTACK COULD NOT ESTABLISH AIR SUPPORT RARITY OVER THE RATE OF WARP.

WE HOPE WE ESTABLISH OUR OWN SUPERIORITY OVER THE SKIES.

IF WE DO SO, OUR GOAL WILL BE RESOLVED.

>>> ONE OF THE GOALS FIRST AND FOREMOST OBVIOUSLY, AFTER DEFEATING RUSSIA, WOULD BE TO JOIN NATO.

WE SAW THE DEFENSE CHIEFS MEET IN BRUSSELS YESTERDAY.

AS FAR AS ALIGNMENT TO NATO, THAT UKRAINE WILL JOIN NATO AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE, THEY ARE ALL ALIGNED ON THAT LINE, BUT WHEN UKRAINE CAN JOIN IS THE BIG?

HERE AND WE DO NOT REALLY HAVE A TIMETABLE EVEN SET BY PRESIDENT BIDEN.

THERE DOES SEEM TO BE THIS ALTERNATIVE MODEL THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE AN ALL OR NOTHING SCENARIO, THAT UKRAINE COULD GO BY WAY OF ISRAEL, PERHAPS, OR EVEN TAIWAN, BUT NOT OFFICIALLY JOINING ANY SORT OF MEMBERSHIP OR ALLIANCE, BUT GETTING ALL OF THE WEAPONRY AND SUPPLIES IN ORDER TO PROTECT ITSELF.

WOULD UKRAINE SETTLE FOR THAT RIGHT NOW?

>> I BELIEVE THAT IS A BIT INCORRECT AS A COMPARISON BECAUSE TAIWAN AND ISRAEL ARE NOT PART OF THE NORTHERN ATLANTIC REGION.

I GUESS, IN A WAY, IF ISRAEL WAS CLOSER THEY WOULD BE IN THE ALLIANCE, AS WELL.

THAT WAS A DECISION DONE OUT OF GEOGRAPHICAL NECESSITY SO I WOULD NOT EXPECT OUR FRIENDS AND PARTNERS TO INVENT SOMETHING NEW AND UNIQUELY UKRAINIAN.

IF WE HAVE [INDISCERNIBLE] UKRAINE WAS TRYING TO GET INTO THE ALLIANCE FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR SOME OF THE MEMBERS IT IS DIFFICULT FOR THEIR OWN REASONS BUT UKRAINE IS PROVING THAT IT ACTUALLY CAN BE A DONOR OF SECURITY IN THIS REGION.

WE HAVE THE LARGEST ARMY RIGHT NOW IN EUROPE.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT WILL DEPEND ON SOMETHING ELSE RATHER THAN NATO.

OUR PRESIDENT IS SAYING YES, WE NEED SECURITY ALLIES RATHER IN THE WAY OF ISRAEL OR TAIWAN BUT [INDISCERNIBLE] UNTIL UKRAINE CAN BECOME A MEMBER OF NATO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE LONG-TERM COMMITMENT THAT WESTERN ALLIES CAN CONTINUE TO PROVIDE UKRAINE.

PERHAPS NOT JOINING AN ALLIANCE, BUT CONTINUING TO PROVIDE SUPPORT MILITARILY, ECONOMICALLY FOR YEARS TO COME.

THERE IS SOME AMBIGUITY IN TERMS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN A DEMOCRACY.

YOU HAVE CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP.

THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND RICHIE SUNAK HAS REALLY STEPPED UP AND CONTINUE TO OFFER THAT SUPPORT BUT THERE IS SOME SPECULATION ABOUT WHAT MAY HAPPEN IN A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENCY, PERHAPS EVEN ANOTHER TRUMP PRESIDENCY IN THE UNITED STATES.

I WANT YOU TO RESPOND WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT SAID RECENTLY IN A CNN TOWN HALL IN TERMS OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IN THIS WAR.

>> CAN YOU SAY IF YOU WANT UKRAINE OR RUSSIA TO WIN THIS WAR?

>> I WANT EVERYBODY TO STOP DYING.

THEY ARE DYING.

RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS.

I WANT THEM TO STOP DYING, AND I WILL HAVE THAT DONE IN 24 HOURS I WILL HAVE IT DONE.

YOU NEED THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENCY TO DO IT.

>> BUT SHE WON'T SAY YOU WANT UKRAINE TO WIN.

>> I WILL SAY I WANT EUROPE TO PUT UP MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY ARE IN FOR 20 BILLION.

WE ARE IN FOR 170 AND THEY SHOULD EQUALIZE.

THEY HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY.

>> HE COULD NOT ANSWER WHO HE SUPPORTS IN THIS WAR AND SAYS THAT IF HE IS IN POWER HE WOULD HAVE THE WAR ENDED IN 24 HOURS.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL [INDISCERNIBLE] DEMOCRACY IN ACTION.

I WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT WHEN THE PRESIDENT CAME TO POWER HE ALSO BELIEVES THAT THE WAR WITH RUSSIA COULD BE RESOLVED.

IT SOUNDS LIKE TO WE JUST HAVE TO STOP SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS NOT ENOUGH WHAT YOU WISH, BUT WE STILL HAVE RUSSIA AS A SIDE OF THE SAME ADMINISTRATION TABLE.

THIS IS A SIMPLIFIED VERSION OF WHAT A POSSIBLE CANDIDATE FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SAYING BUT I GUESS AS SOON AS SOMEBODY IS THE DEMOCRATIC OR REPUBLICAN WHO WAS THE PRESIDENT THEY WILL UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM WITH RUSSIA.

IT IS NOT THE ELECTION YET.

IT IS PRE-ELECTORAL SORT OF CAUSES.

THEY HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

>>> VERY DIPLOMATIC RESPONSE FROM YOU, MR.

AMBASSADOR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WE HAVE A MAJOR PROGRAMMING NOTE TO TELL YOU ABOUT.

NEXT WEEK, CHRISTIANE WILL SIT DOWN WITH FORMER PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA FOR A ONE-ON-ONE EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW TO TALK CANDIDLY ABOUT UKRAINE, THE 2024 U.S. ELECTION AND THE GLOBAL STATE OF DEMOCRACY.

THAT IS AIRING NEXT THURSDAY AT 10:00 P.M. EASTERN AND AGAIN ON THE SHOW ON FRIDAY AT THE USUAL TIME.

>>> IT IS AN IMPORTANT WEEKEND FOR U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN, WHO IS HEADED TO CHINA TO RESET FROSTY RELATIONS WITH BEIJING.

TODAY, CHINESE PRESIDENT XI JINPING MET WITH BILL GATES, CALLING HIM THE FIRST AMERICAN FRIEND HE HAS SEEN THIS YEAR.

NOW LIVING OUTSIDE CHINA AND KNOWN BY THE NAME BADIUCAO, HIS LATEST EXHIBITION OPENS TODAY IN WARSAW DESPITE ALLEGED ATTEMPTS BY CHINESE OFFICIALS TO SHUT IT DOWN.

HE TOLD ME EARLIER ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY HE FEELS TO SPEAK UP.

>> BADIUCAO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY FOR MORE SOFTWARE YOU ARE DEBUTING YOUR NEW EXHIBIT.

IT IS CALLED TELL CHINA'S STORY WELL, AND IT IS A PLAY ON THE NAME OF A CAMPAIGN THEN INTRODUCED BY PRESIDENT XI IN HIS FIRST TERM AND WERE TALKING ABOUT OVER A DECADE AGO IN 2013 ON TELLING CHINA'S STORY.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS NAME?

>> IS AN ARTIST I ALWAYS WANT TO INTRODUCE THE REAL SITUATION OF CHINA TO THE WORLD.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT CHANCE TO PLAY WITH THIS PROPAGANDA SLOGAN AND SPIN IT FROM MY SIDE OF THE STORY.

TO KNOW CHINA, TO KNOW ANY COUNTRY REQUIRES MULTIPLE PERSPECTIVE.

IN CHINA, YOU ONLY HEAR ONE VOICE BUT AS AN INDIVIDUAL ARTIST I WANT TO PROVIDE AN INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVE.

PERHAPS THAT IS A BETTER WAY TO TELL CHINA'S STORY WELL.

>> WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE PIECE OF ART BEHIND YOU.

IT IS A PRESIDENT XI DEVOURING HUMAN FLESH, A PLAY ON THE CORREA.

THE GOYA.

IT IS A DIFFICULT PIECE TO FINISH AND NOT EASY FOR ANY AUDIENCE BUT MY MESSAGES TO NOT LOOK AWAY BECAUSE GIVEN WHAT CHINA'S GOVERNMENT HAS DONE TO ITS OWN PEOPLE FROM CHINESE CITIZENS TO HONG KONG IS TO TIBETANS AND ALSO WITH CHINA'S THREAT MORE INTERNATIONALLY WITH IT SUPPORTING TO RUSSIA WITH ITS POTENTIAL WERE THREAT AGAINST TAIWAN I DO THINK IT IS A LEGITIMIZED METAPHOR SHOWING CHINA IS THIS VERY DANGEROUS GOVERNMENT RULING COUNTRY AND ITS LEADER, XI JINPING, IS ACTUALLY HURTING THE MOST VULNERABLE PART OF HUMANITY.

>> YOU HAVE A SIMILAR PIECE DEPICTING LATIMER PUTIN EATING FLESH AND YOU'VE CRITICIZE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PRESIDENT XI AND PRESIDENT PUTIN FOR YOUR ARTWORK.

TALK TO US MORE ABOUT THAT IN THE MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING BY HAVING THIS INTRODUCED IN POLAND, ITSELF.

>> I THINK IT IS PARTICULARLY MEANINGFUL TO BRINGING THIS MESSAGE, BRINGING THIS JUXTAPOSITION AND HIGHLIGHTING THIS VERY DISGRACEFUL AND HIGHLIGHTING [INDISCERNIBLE] .

POLAND IS PROBABLY THE MOST SUPPORTIVE COUNTRY TO UKRAINE REGARDING RUSSIA'S INVASION AT THIS MOMENT AND AT THE SAME TIME THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS PICTURING ITSELF AS SOME KIND OF NEUTRAL OR PEACEMAKER POSITION BUT IN FACT, MY KNOWLEDGE, MY UNDERSTANDING OF CHINA IS TELLING ME THAT CHINA'S GOVERNMENT WAS 100% SIDING WITH RUSSIA FROM FINANCIAL ECONOMIC SUPPORT TO ACTUALLY SENDING WEAPONS, AND MILITARY VEHICLES TO RUSSIA.

THIS IS A VERY CRIME THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT LOOK AWAY.

MY ART, THIS EXHIBITION IS ABOUT HIGHLIGHTING THIS VERY TOXIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA.

>> OF USER KNOW, THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS TRIED TO DO EVERYTHING IN THE POWER TO TRY TO SHUT THIS EXHIBIT DOWN AND REACHED OUT AT PRESSURE ON POLISH OFFICIALS AS WELL.

HERE'S WHAT THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SAID.

CULTURAL EXCHANGE SHOULD BE CONDUCIVE TO PROMOTING OBJECTIVE UNDERSTANDING AND FRIENDSHIP.

WHAT IS INTERESTING HERE IS NOT THAT THIS IS THE FIRST BATTLE LIKE THIS THAT YOU WERE FOUGHT.

THERE IS BEEN SIMILAR PRESSURE PUT ON THE ITALIAN GOVERNMENT A FEW YEARS AGO OVER AN EXHIBIT YOU OPENED THERE.

THE ITALIAN GOVERNMENT DID NOT SUCCUMB TO THE PRESSURE AND IT DOES NOT APPEAR THAT THE POLISH GOVERNMENT IS EITHER.

WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE DO YOU THINK THAT SINCE?

>> WELL, I AM NEVER A STRANGER TO CHINA'S CENSORSHIP, INTIMIDATION AND THREAT.

IT HAS BEEN FOLLOWING ME SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING OF MY ART CAREER, BUT TO BE HONEST, THIS IS NOT A REASON WHY ANY ARTIST SHOULD COMPROMISE.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND HOW COURAGE IS NEEDED IN THIS TIME.

I WAS SPEAKING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DID NOT HAVE A VOICE BACK IN CHINA.

I'M SPEAKING TO THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT CLEARLY AND THIS IS MY DUTY.

THIS IS MY RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO AS AN ARTIST.

>> BADIUCAO IS NOT YOUR LEGAL NAME.

IT IS AN ALIAS YOU HAD TAKEN ON.

YOU HAD WORKED AND HID YOUR FACE FOR MANY YEARS GONE THE THREATS THAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY HAD RECEIVED.

WHAT MADE YOU FINALLY COME PUBLIC AT LEAST VISUALLY BY REMOVING THE MASK COVERING YOUR FACE?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

BEING ANONYMOUS AS AN ARTIST SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MY ART CAREER IN 2018 JUST FOR MY HONG KONG SOLO EXHIBITION, MY IDENTITY GOT CONNED REMISE, COMPROMISED, MY FAMILY BACK IN SHANGHAI WAS TAKEN TO THE POLICE STATION FOR INFORMATION THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW.

AFTER THAT, THE SHOW WAS UNFORTUNATELY CANCELED BECAUSE OF THIS TERRIBLE THREAT BUT ALSO, THE BIGGEST QUESTION TO ME IS IF I WANT TO CONTINUE MAKING ART IN THIS WAY, AND IF NOW I MUST FACE THIS NEW UNDERSTANDING THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT KNOWS WHO I AM, I NEVER BELIEVED ANYONE COULD EXCHANGE FREEDOM FOR SAFETY BUT I BELIEVE THAT IF PEOPLE SPEAK UP THAT IS THE WAY YOU CAN GAIN MORE INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, YOU CAN GAIN MORE ATTENTION FOR THE CAUSE YOUR FIGHTING FOR AND ENCOURAGE MORE PEOPLE TO JOIN ME AND SHARE THIS RISK AND BURDEN TOGETHER IN THE HOPE THAT ONE DAY WE CAN EVENTUALLY CHANGE A REGIME LIKE CHINA.

TO ME IT IS NOT EVEN A CHOICE.

I THINK THIS IS THE PATH THAT I CHOOSE AND I BELIEVE THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH TO CHOOSE.

>> YOU REALIZE THAT IS A DANGEROUS PATH TO CHOOSE, AND SO FAR IT IS VERY LONELY PATH.

IT ENCAPSULATES A DAVID VERSUS GOLIATH.

TELL OUR VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT LED YOU TO THIS JOURNEY BECAUSE FROM MY UNDERSTANDING, YOU WERE A LAW STUDENT IN CHINA AND IT WAS ONLY WHEN YOU HAD WATCHED A VIDEO WHERE SOMEONE HAD SLICED AND ILLEGALLY FOOTAGE OF THE TIANANMEN MASSACRE, WHICH YOU AND MOST PEOPLE IN CHINA WERE NOT AWARE OF, THAT CHANGE THE COURSE OF YOUR LIFE -- CAN YOU GIVE US MORE INSIGHT INTO THAT DECISION?

>> SURE.

I REALLY LIKE THE METAPHOR OF DAVID AND GOLIATH BECAUSE WE KNOW WHO WIN IN THE END.

I WOULD TURN TO THE IDEA THAT I AM VERY ALONE BECAUSE LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN CHINA.

THE ENTIRE NATION PROTESTED AGAINST THE COVID LOCKDOWN AND THEN THEY BECAME AN ENTIRE MOVEMENT DEMANDING MORE FOR DEMOCRACY, FOR FREEDOM, THE CCP STEPPING DOWN, XI JINPING STEPPING DOWN.

I DO HAVE A LOT OF HOPE IN THE YOUNGER GENERATION BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO CAN HAVE THE HOPE, CAN CHANGE CHINA BUT ALSO THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROTEST SINCE THE TIANANMEN MOVEMENT.

FOR A LONG TIME I SAW THAT CHINA'S GENERATION HAD LOST THE COURAGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE VALUE OF FREEDOM, BUT [INDISCERNIBLE] MOVEMENT HAS PROVED ME WRONG AND SHOOK THE WHOLE WORLD BY GIVING ME A LOT OF HOPE.

YES, TIANANMEN MASSACRE IS SOMETHING CHINESE PEOPLE SHOULD NEVER FORGET AND TO ME IT IS A PERSONAL REMINDER OF HOW TERRIBLE WILL AND TERRIFYING THIS REGIME HAS BECOME IN THE PEOPLE WHO PROTEST GIVING ME THE POWER BUT ALSO KNOW THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS PROTEST, THE WHITE PAPER MOVEMENT IS STRESSING THE POWER EVEN BIGGER.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THOSE BRAVE PEOPLE WHO WANT OUT AND PROTEST IN CHINA IS SOMETHING WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN DECADES AND ALSO THOSE WHO PROTESTED IN HONG KONG, AS WELL, BUT YOU YOURSELF HAD VOICED DISAPPOINTMENT WITH CERTAIN GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING THAT OF AUSTRALIA, WHERE YOU CURRENTLY RESIDE, THAT IN YOUR VIEW, DID NOT STAND UP FOR YOU AND YOUR WORK AGAINST THE BULLYING THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FROM BEIJING, AND YOU ALSO SEE OTHER FOREIGN LEADERS, OTHER WESTERN LEADERS CONTINUE TO MAKE VISITS AND TRIPS TO BEIJING, OBVIOUSLY A LARGE ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER.

DO YOU WORRY AT ALL ABOUT ANY KIND OF COMPROMISE?

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANTONY BLINKEN'S VISIT IN WANTING TO AVOID WAR, BUT THERE IS ALSO A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER CONTINUED RELATIONSHIPS ECONOMICALLY WITH WESTERN LEADERS WILL ONLY CONTINUE TO EMBOLDEN PRESIDENT SHE AND HIS POWER THERE.

>> I THINK IT IS INDEED A VERY CONCERNING ISSUED TO DEMOCRACY THAT WE HAVE IN THE FREE WORLD.

YES, I AM NOT 100% SATISFIED WITH THE GOVERNMENT'S REACTION TO CHINA'S AGGRESSION.

WHILE THEY DID HAVE SOME IMPROVEMENT AT LEAST THIS TIME, I MET WITH THE AUSTRALIAN AMBASSADOR BEFORE WE OPEN, BUT I AM STILL WAITING FOR THEM TO DO A MORE PUBLIC AND STRONG CONDEMNATION AGAINST CHINA'S INTERFERENCE, AND TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY TO THE DEMOCRACY, I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF COMPANIES, CORPORATIONS AND POLITICIANS NOT VISIONARY ENOUGH.

IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO KEEP DOING BUSINESS REGULARLY WITH CHINA WITHOUT ANY OBLIGATION DEMANDING CHINA TO BETTERING HUMAN LIVES ANOTHER MORE PRESSING ISSUE WITH NO CHINA'S WERE THREAT AGAINST TAIWAN, THIS WILL UNLEASH AN ENTIRE FIRE AND BLOOD TO ALL OF US.

THIS WILL BE A THREAT TO EVERYONE'S PEACE, WELL-BEING AROUND THE WORLD.

SO, IT IS A CHOICE THAT EVERY POLITICIAN, EVERY DEMOCRACY MUST MAKE MAKE IT.

IT IS A CHOICE ABOUT OUR FUTURE.

WE WANT UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS, UNIVERSAL DEMOCRACY AND A BRIGHT FUTURE.

THIS IS THE QUESTION.

>> LET ME END THIS CONVERSATION BY ASKING ABOUT YOUR FUTURE PLANS.

DO YOU ENVISION AT ALL RETURNING TO CHINA ANYTIME SOON, AND DO YOU STILL HAVE FAMILY THAT RESIDES THERE?

>> IT IS INDEED A HARD SITUATION FOR ME.

I DO NOT SEE HOW I CAN COME BACK TO CHINA SAFELY AS LONG AS CHINA'S CONGRESS PARTY IS STILL IN POWER.

I THINK MY FAMILY BACK IN CHINA ARE STILL CONSTANTLY HARASSED AND INTIMIDATED BY THE CHINESE POLICE.

WHAT I CAN DO NOW IS ACTUALLY CUTTING ALL MY CONNECTION WITH THE FAMILY IN CHINA SO THAT I CAN BECOME IRRELEVANT TO THEM SO THEY BECOME LESS RELEVANT TO THE CHINESE AUTHORITY BUT WHEN I AM OUTSIDE, IT DOES NOT MEAN I HAVE TO BE LONELY.

I STILL HAVE A LOT OF VOICE.

I STILL HAVE A LOT OF MESSAGE TO SAY WITHIN MY ART.

>> THAT IS A REALLY PAINFUL RATIONALE THAT YOU REVEAL SAVING YOUR FAMILY REQUIRES YOU TO SEVER TIES WITH THEM.

BADIUCAO, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY AND BEST OF LUCK WITH THE EXHIBIT.

WE SHOULD NOTE THAT WE HAVE REACHED OUT TO THE CHINESE EMBASSY IN POLAND REGARDING BADIUCAO'S ALLEGATIONS AND HAVE YET TO HEAR BACK.

>>> MEANTIME IN A MAJOR VICTORY FOR NATIVE AMERICAN RIGHTS, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD KEY PROVISIONS OF THE INDIAN CHILD WELFARE ACT GIVING PREFERENCE TO THE ADOPTION OF NATIVE AMERICAN CHILDREN TO THEIR TRIBES AND FAMILIES.

THE LAW WAS PASSED 45 YEARS AGO TO PROTECT TRIBAL SOVEREIGNTY AND CORRECT PAST GOVERNMENT ABUSES.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS RETELLING THE STORY OF AMERICA TO READ INCLUDE NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY.

NED BLACKHAWK IS RESHAPING UNDERSTANDINGS IN HIS NEW BOOK.

>> NED BLACKHAWK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE TACKLING AN ENORMOUS TASK HERE WITH THIS BOOK, WHICH IS TO TRY TO REFRAME AMERICAN HISTORY BY MOVING MORE TO THE CENTER, NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FIRST OF ALL, WHY THIS CHALLENGE IS NECESSARY.

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT GENEROUS RECOGNITION.

I AM TRYING TO DO SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN A CONCERN OF MINE FOR A WHILE, AND THAT IS TO PROVIDE A SINGLE VOLUME, SYNTHETIC OVERVIEW OF NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY THAT TRIES TO DO SO THROUGH CONVENTIONAL SUBJECTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, AND DOES SO BY BUILDING UPON WHAT I CALL THE REDISCOVERY OF AMERICA, WHICH IS A GENERATION OF ACADEMIC AND TRIBAL AND OTHER SCHOLARLY PURSUITS THAT HAVE FUNDAMENTALLY REALIGNED HOW WE SHOULD THINK AND SEE AMERICAN HISTORY, BUT A LOT OF THOSE STUDIES AND FINDINGS HAVE YET TO BE BROUGHT TOGETHER IN A SINGLE VOLUME.

>> ONE THING YOU POINT OUT IS LITERALLY WITH THE WORD DISCOVERY, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF OUR HISTORY IS WRITTEN AND FRAMED BY THE NOTION THAT THE WESTERN EXPLORERS, THE CIVILIZED , WERE THE ONES WHO DISCOVERED AMERICA, AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU ARE ADVOCATING FOR IN THIS BOOK, REALLY, IS LET'S CHANGE THAT WORD.

TO WHAT?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD THINK MORE ABOUT ENCOUNTER AS A PARADIGM FOR UNDERSTANDING OUR NATIONS HISTORY RATHER THAN DISCOVERY IN THE BOOK IS ENTITLED REDISCOVERY TO PLAYOFF THE CONVENTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF AMERICA HAVING BEEN DISCOVERED IN 1492 BY EUROPEAN EXPLORERS, AND THE IDEA THAT WE ARE STANDING NOW, PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE RELATIVELY STILL EARLY 21st CENTURY AT A KIND OF PRECIPICE WHERE WE CAN, IN FACT, TURN ANEW TO OUR CONTINENCE HISTORY AND SEE IT IN A NEW WAY.

WE CAN REDISCOVER AMERICAN HISTORY BY ENGAGING THE SUBJECT AND DRAWING UPON THIS GENERATION OF SCHOLARS I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT, OR THAT I AM REFERENCING.

>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE, WHEN WE ARE THINKING ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY, HOW WE EITHER SIDELINE MARGINALIZED OR FORGET THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY HERE.

>> WELL, IN A FEW WEEKS, WE WILL CELEBRATE OUR INDEPENDENCE ON THE FOURTH OF JULY, AND IT IS REALLY QUITE SHOCKING, I THINK, FOR MANY AMERICAN STUDENTS CITIZENS AND OTHER CONCERNED CIVIC LEADERS TO LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THE DECLARATION IS IN MANY WAYS, AND INCITEMENT OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE AMERICANS AND THE LAST CONCERN THAT THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS AUTHORIZES IN THE DECLARATION IS A GRIEVANCE AGAINST THE KING FOR INCITING MERCILESS INDIAN SAVAGES, IS THEIR TERM, AND THAT IS THE KIND OF CULMINATING CONCLUSION TO CHAPTER 5 OF THIS BOOK, WHICH IS ON THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION.

WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT FUNDAMENTALLY RECOGNIZING THAT REALLY KEY ELEMENTAL MOMENTS OF NATIONAL FORMATION -- THE REVOLUTION, THE CONSTITUTION, THE CIVIL WAR ERA, THE RISE OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE FOR POLITICAL AMERICAN STATE OF THE 19th CENTURY, INDIAN AFFAIRS AND INDIAN PEOPLES WERE CENTRAL CONCERNS TO AMERICAN POLICYMAKERS AND THOSE WORDS ARE LITERALLY FOUND IN OUR NATION'S MOST CHERISHED AND OFTEN RECITED DOCUMENTS.

>> YOU WRITE, TO UNDERSTAND THE REVOLUTION WITHOUT AMERICAN INDIANS IS LIKE A ONE-HANDED CLAP.

WALK US THROUGH HOW THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO SETTLE THIS LAND AND NATIVE AMERICANS WAS A PRECURSOR TO THEIR DISCONTENT WITH THE BRITISH.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS A HISTORY THAT IS REALLY UNDERSTUDIED AND UNKNOWN OUTSIDE OF SOME RELATIVELY SMALL ACADEMIC CIRCLES AROUND 18 CENTURY AMERICAN HISTORY.

THERE WAS A MONUMENTAL CONFLICT IN THE MID-1750S THAT SPREAD ACROSS NOT JUST NORTH AMERICA, BUT MUCH OF THE EUROPEAN ATLANTIC AND PORTIONS OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

THAT WAS THE SEVEN YEARS WAR.

IT BEGINS IN THE INTERIOR OF NORTH AMERICA AND ENDS EVEN FURTHER IN THE INTERIOR.

THE INTERIOR REGIONS WERE NOT HAPPY WITH THE REDDISH CROWN BECAUSE THE BRITISH CROWN IS ATTEMPTING DIPLOMATIC, TRADING AND OTHER VARIOUS TYPES OF INITIATIVES WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT EASILY COMPARABLE AND HAD YET TO BE CONQUERED SO THESE AMERICAN SELLERS IN THESE BACKCOUNTRY REGIONS HAVE AN ALMOST BURIAL AT ANTI- INDIGENOUS IDEOLOGIES FORMING AROUND BRITISH POLICIES AND THAT IS HOW THOSE SENTIMENTS ESSENTIALLY FIND THEIR WAY INTO THE DECLARATION BUT YOU KNOW, I SAY IT IS LIKE A ONE-HANDED CLAP, WHICH MEANS IT IS LIKE AN EXCITED BUT EMPTY GESTURE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND AN ERA IN WHICH INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS AND PEOPLES IN POWER WERE CENTRAL TO THE CONCERNS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY ERA.

>> YOU WRITE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PRESIDENT LINCOLN BUT [INDISCERNIBLE] RIDING THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND WHAT IS HAPPENING OUT IN THE DAKOTAS.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF LINCOLN AT THIS TIME, THAT WE DON'T HEAR ABOUT VERY OFTEN.

>> IT WAS ONE OF THESE REVELATORY MOMENTS WHEN I WAS READING STUDIES AND STUDIES OF THE SUBJECT AND COMING TO REALIZE THAT VERY FEW CONVENTIONAL HISTORIES OF THE CIVIL WAR RECOGNIZE THE CIVIL WAR NOT ONLY HAD A WESTERN THEATER TO IT, IN WHICH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF NATIVE AMERICANS EITHER FOUGHT AND/OR WERE KILLED, BUT THERE WAS ALSO AN INCREDIBLE LEGACY IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE GROWTH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OVER THIS PART OF NORTH AMERICA, AND WE REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE ULTIMATE LEGACIES OF THE CIVIL WAR OR LINCOLN'S PRESIDENCY OUTSIDE OF THESE MONUMENTAL CONFLICTS AND TRANSFORMATIONS THAT ARE OCCURRING.

SO, THE DAKOTA WAR IN THE SUMMER OF 1862, WHICH IS FOLLOWED BY THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF SEVERAL THOUSAND DAKOTA PEOPLES FROM SOUTHERN MINNESOTA AND THE FORCED RELOCATION EVENTUALLY TO THAT IT WOULD INCLUDE THE LARGEST CONFLICT IN THE HISTORY OF 1862.

THAT WAS PART OF A SERIES OF EXTRAORDINARILY TRAUMATIC PAINS BETWEEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE INDIAN NATIONS THAT STRETCHED FROM RURAL CALIFORNIA ACROSS THE SOUTHWEST AND INCLUDES THE FIRST RELOCATION OF NEARLY 10,000 PEOPLE DURING THE LONG WALK, THE SETS OF HORRIFIC MASSACRES AT THE BEAR RIVER, AT SAND CREEK.

THESE ARE WELL-KNOWN IN THE HISTORY OF WESTERN AMERICA, BUT THEY GET TO BE REALLY BROAD TO SUFFICIENTLY UNDERSTAND IN THE CIVIL WAR ERA BECAUSE WHEN THEY DO YOU START SEEING BOTH THE CIVIL WAR AND THE WEST VERY DIFFERENTLY.

YOU START SEEING THAT THE CIVIL WAR WAS IN FACT, AN INCREDIBLY UNDETERMINED MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY IN WHICH VIOLENCE BECAME THE PRIMARY FORM OF SOCIAL CHANGE AND POWER.

THE CIVIL WAR ESSENTIALLY IS A CONTINENTAL WIDE CONFLICT OR STRUGGLE THAT HAS AN INHERENTLY INDIGENOUS WESTERN DIMENSION TO IT.

WE BEGIN THE SURGERY CALIBRATIONS.

>> WE HAVE RECENTLY AND COMING INTO [INDISCERNIBLE] THE SLAVE TRADE AND AFRICAN- AMERICANS AND HOW THAT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE SINS OF THE FOUNDING OF THIS NATION AND YOU WRITE IN YOUR BOOK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO IDENTIFY -- YOU SAY IDENTIFYING AMERICAN HISTORY IS THE SITE OF GENOCIDE COMPLICATES THE PREMISE OF THE AMERICAN STORY.

WHAT IS IT THAT I THINK YOU WISH WAS CENTRAL TO THE AMERICAN FOUNDING STORY THAT HAS BEEN OVERLOOKED?

>> I THINK THE REAL TAKE AWAY THAT I WOULD ENCOURAGE LISTENERS OR READERS OF THE TEXTS TO KIND OF CONSIDER IS DO WE HAVE A CAPACITY TO SEE OURSELVES BOTH DIFFERENTLY AND IN A SENSE, MORE HISTORICALLY, BECAUSE IF WE DO, WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE BOTH INDIGENOUS AS WELL AS IMPERIALIST SUBJECTS UPON THE EARLY AMERICAN LANDSCAPE.

WE HAVE TOO MANY KIND OF MYTHOLOGIES IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT THE CENTRALITY OF ENGLISH SETTLERS, PARTICULARLY IN NEW ENGLAND, THAT REALLY DISCOUNTS THE DIVERSITY EVEN OF THE BRITISH SUBJECTS THEMSELVES.

THERE WERE PEOPLE IN BARBADOS.

WE LOSE THE HETEROGENEITY OF THE SUBJECT AND FALL UPON RELATIVELY WELL RECEIVED AND SIMPLIFIED CATEGORIES OF ANALYSIS.

IF WE HAVE THAT KIND OF CAPACITY, IT IS NOT GOING TO YIELD INITIALLY THE KIND OF IMMEDIATE REVELATION THAT WE MAY BE HOPING FOR, BUT WE CAN SEE PAST THEM AND START SEEING HOW NUMEROUS MONUMENTS HAVE RECENTLY COME DOWN, THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS FINALLY ABANDONED ITS MYTHOLOGIZED STATE FLAG OF AN INDIAN WELCOMING PURITAN SETTLERS FROM 1620S.

THERE IS A KIND OF RECKONING HAPPENING THAT JUST WITH THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN SLAVERY AND ITS CENTRALITY IN AMERICA BUT ALSO WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF THE CONTINENT AND I AM HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN SOMEDAY BRING THESE TWO RECKONINGS ESSENTIALLY TOGETHER WITHIN A PUBLIC SPHERE TO DISCUSS OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY IN PRESENT AND NEW FORMS.

>> THERE IS ALSO A NEW CHAPTER IN AMERICAN HISTORY FOR THE CULTURAL ERADICATION OF NATIVE PEOPLES, THE FIRST ASSIMILATION , TAKING OF CHILDREN AND PUTTING THEM INTO THESE DIFFERENT BOARDING SCHOOLS.

TELL US A BIT ABOUT HOW LARGE- SCALE THAT WAS, HOW EFFECTIVE IT WAS AND REALLY, WHAT THE GOAL WAS.

>> THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT OF AMERICA POLITICAL CHANGE AND IT AFFECTS INDIANS IN CERTAIN WAYS MORE THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE'S BECAUSE THESE COMMUNITIES ARE BEING SIMULTANEOUSLY CONFINED AND THEN OFTEN SUBDIVIDED AND CHILDREN ARE BEING TAKEN FROM THEM.

AND SO, THIS IS THE KIND OF DOMINANT THEME OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THROUGHOUT THE LATE 1800S, SHORTLY AFTER RECONSTRUCTION CONCLUDES.

THERE ARE U.S. ARMY OFFICIALS WHO HAVE BEEN OUT WEST AND STATIONED AMONG THE INDIANS TO START REALIZING THAT THEIR CHARGES, THE PEOPLE THEY ARE SUPERVISING, LACK THE CAPACITY TO BECOME IMMEDIATELY INCORPORATED INTO THE UNION.

THERE ARE VERY FEW MISSIONARIES INITIALLY IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE WEST AND VERY FEW SCHOOLS AND MILITARY OFFICIALS START TRYING TO FORCIBLY IMPOSE CERTAIN TYPES OF PEDAGOGY'S ON THEIR PRISONERS, AND THAT BECOMES A KIND OF MODEL OF PEDAGOGY THAT FORMS AT THE CARLISLE INDIAN INSTITUTE IN 1879 RUN BY FORMER MILITARY CAPTAIN RICHARD HENRY PRATT.

THIS MILITARY STYLE PEDAGOGY EVENTUALLY REACHES 40% OF ALL THE NATIONS INDIGENOUS CHILDREN, ROUGHLY 75,000 AMERICAN INDIAN CHILDREN ARE SENT TO THESE BOARDING SCHOOLS, WHICH ESSENTIALLY CHARACTERIZED POLICY FOR ABOUT A HALF A CENTURY AND YOU CAN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF THE 20th CENTURY WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING HOW EXTENSIVE, INFLUENTIAL AND HARMFUL THESE INSTITUTIONS BECAME BECAUSE THEY INSPIRED A GENERATION OF AMERICAN ACTIVISTS WHO TOOK AIM AT CHANGING THESE POLICIES, WHICH THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN DOING THROUGHOUT THE 20s AND INTO THE 30s.

THIS ANTI-ASSIMILATION IDEOLOGY AND ACTIVISION ACTIVISM OF NATIVE AMERICAN LEADERS HELPS ESTABLISH OTHER ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHIES ABOUT WET THE COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND WHAT SHOULD BE DOING IN THE SETS IN MOTION SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT REFORMS IN THE NEW DEAL ERA KNOWN AS THE INDIAN NEW DEAL, WHEN TRIBAL GOVERNMENTS START FORMING AND ADOPTING CONSTITUTIONS FOR THEMSELVES TO BE SELF GOVERNED.

>> WILL END OUR CONVERSATION MAYBE WITH THE FIRST WORDS FROM YOUR BOOK, AND HOW CAN A NATION FOUNDED ON THE HOMELANDS OF DISPOSSESSED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES BE THE WORLD'S MOST EXEMPLARY DEMOCRACY?

>> I THINK THAT IS CORRECTED IN THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNT THAT WE ALL READ AND HEAR ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS A SOBERING KIND OF QUERY THAT OPENS THIS PROJECT, BUT ONE WITH A KIND OF HOPEFUL, IF NOT OPTIMISTIC SENTIMENT THAT WE DO HAVE THE CAPACITY WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT OUR NATION'S HISTORY DIFFERENTLY AND MORE THOROUGHLY, TO SEE WITHIN IT AN ALTERNATIVE UNDERSTANDING OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND NATIONHOOD IN WHICH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES CAN AND SHOULD BE CENTRALLY INCLUDED.

FAR FROM BEING SAVAGES, NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES HAVE BECOME ONE OF THE MOST RESILIENT, ADAPTIVE AND IN MANY PLACES, VISIBLE SOCIAL COMMUNITIES WITHIN OUR NATIONAL FABRIC.

CAN WE FIND A WAY TO THINK OF OUR DEMOCRATIC PRACTICES, OUR CORPORATE DOCTRINES AND JURISDICTIONAL CONFLICTS DIFFERENTLY, THAT UNDERSTANDS NATIVE NATIONS AS DISTINCT, SOVEREIGN COMMUNITIES WITHIN A LARGER FABRIC OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY?

THAT WOULD BE THE KIND OF HOPE I WOULD RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION WITH.

>> NED BLACKHAWK, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "THE REDISCOVERY OF NATIVE AMERICAN PEOPLES AND THEIR UNMAKING. "

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW WE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO REFLECT ON THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF OSCAR-WINNING ACTRESS AND FORMER UK POLITICS SHOULD, GLENDA JACKSON, WHO DIED THIS WEEK AT THE AGE OF 87.

AN ACCLAIMED PERFORMER OF THE STAGE AND SCREEN, SHE BUILT A LEGACY ACROSS A 23 YEAR STINT AS A BRITISH LAWMAKER.

CANTU SPOKE TO GLENDA JACKSON IN 2018.

>> YOU PUT YOUR ACTING CAREER ON HIATUS TO TAKE UP ANOTHER CAREER.

DID YOU EVER THINK, WHEN YOU DECIDED NOT TO RUN AGAIN, YOU PUT POLITICS ASIDE THAT YOU, GLENDA JACKSON, WOULD NOT JUST BE ASKED TO COME BACK TO ONE PLAY, BUT HUGE MONUMENTAL PLAYS AND ROLLS.

>> IT DID NOT OCCUR TO ME, NO.

I REMEMBER SAYING TO MY GIRLS IN THE OFFICE WHEN I SAID I WOULD NOT STAND IN THE 2015 ELECTION, I'M GOING TO ENTER AN IRRESPONSIBLE EPISODE IN MY LIFE ONLY TO DISCOVER THAT IN FACT, WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE WORK, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY INCREASES.

WHO GETS YOU OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING IF NOT YOU, BUT THE BBC ASKED ME TO DO A SERIES ON RADIO WHICH I WAS VERY HAPPY TO DO.

THEY WERE GREAT SCRIPTS, AND I DID THAT.

I WAS THEN ASKED TO DO A PLAY.

I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THE PLAY THEY WANTED ME TO DO, AND LEAH CAME AFTER THAT AND I DID IT AND NOW I AM DOING THREE TALL WOMEN AND I AM VERY LUCKY INDEED.

>> IS IT INCREDIBLE THAT YOU DID LEAH AS A WOMAN?

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT DOING THAT INCREDIBLE PLAY, NO ONE EVER MENTIONED IT.

NOBODY IN THE PRODUCTION, NOBODY WHO WATCHED IT.

IN A CURIOUS WAY, NOBODY WHO COMMENTED ON IT MADE ANYTHING OF THAT.

IT MAY BE BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN FOR RENTERS, CERTAINLY IN LONDON.

MARVELOUS ALL WOMEN PRODUCTIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, OF SHAKESPEARE'S HISTORIES.

WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING OVER AND ABOVE THE GREATNESS OF THE PLAY WAS WHEN I WAS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, I WOULD VISIT OLD PEOPLE'S HOMES, DAY CENTERS, THINGS OF THAT NATURE, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME MOST WAS HOW, AS WE GET OLDER, AS WE GET HIGHER AND HIGHER UP THE AGE SCALE, THE GENDER BARRIERS START TO FRAY.

THEY HAVE BEGUN TO FRACTURE.

THEY'RE SORT OF FOGGY.

THE ABSOLUTES ARE NOT THERE ANYMORE, AND THAT, I FOUND VERY USEFUL WHEN I WAS PLAYING LEAH.

IT WAS VERY INTERESTING.

>> ACTUALLY, THAT IS A VERY ENCOURAGING THOUGHT FOR THOSE OF US COMING UP IN THOSE FOOTSTEPS OF AGE.

TELL ME ABOUT BEING A POLITICIAN.

DID YOU EMPLOY YOUR ACTING ABILITIES, CREDENTIALS, YOUR PERFORMING ABILITIES AND PARLIAMENT?

HOW MUCH DID THAT HELP YOU, OR WAS IT UNCONSCIOUS?

>> IT WAS NEVER AT THE FOREFRONT OF MY MIND, BUT WHAT WAS NOT INFREQUENTLY AT THE FOREFRONT OF MY MIND WAS THAT YEARS AGO THERE WAS A SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION OF WHAT WE, AS HUMAN BEINGS, FEAR MOST, AND APPARENTLY WHAT WE FEAR MOST IS DEATH, AND NUMBER TWO ON THE LIST IS PUBLIC SPEAKING.

SO, I HAD THAT ONE COVERED EXCEPT WHEN I ROSE TO MAKE MY MAIDEN SPEECH IN PARLIAMENT, I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO FRIGHTENED IN MY LIFE BECAUSE I WAS SUDDENLY MADE AWARE OF THE FACT A, THAT MY CONSTITUENCY HAD BEEN HOME TO SOME OF THE GREATEST EXPONENTS OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IN OUR HISTORY AND THE OTHER, THAT PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY INVESTED IN ME, THEIR TRUST.

THEY HAD EXERCISED WHAT I REGARD AS OUR GREATEST RIGHT, IF YOU LIKE, THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

IN ME.

THAT WAS EXTREMELY SCARY.

>> JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT KNOW, GIVE US A FEW OF THE ILLUSTRIOUS NAMES FROM HEMPSTEAD AND HIGHGATE.

>> THE ONE THAT IS SORT OF POUNDED IN MY HEAD WAS CATES, OF COURSE.

>> YOU ALSO TOOK PART IN A TRIBUTE TO MARGARET THATCHER.

YOURS WAS -- CAN I CALL IT AN ANTI-TRIBUTE?

>> I HOPE I TOLD THE TRUTH.

I CERTAINLY TOLD THE TRUTH IS I HAD EXPERIENCED IT, AS I HAVE SEEN MY CONSTITUENTS EXPERIENCED IT EVEN THOUGH WHEN I WAS FIRST ELECTED, SHE HAD LONG BEEN ELEVATED TO THE OTHER PLACE, AS WE CALL THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

EVERYTHING I HAD BEEN TAUGHT TO REGARD AS ADVICE SHE TOLD ME WAS A VIRTUE.

GREED WASN'T A VICE.

IT WAS INDEPENDENCE.

THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS A SOCIETY.

WHAT HAVE THE SUFFRAGETTES EVER DONE FOR HER.

THAT, IN A WAY, WAS PERIPHERAL.

ANYTHING I COULD'VE DONE THAT WAS LEGAL TO ENSURE THAT WHAT I REGARDED AS A DISTRACTION NOT ONLY IN ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL BUT MORAL DESTRUCTION OF MY COUNTRY, I WAS PREPARED TO HAVE A GO AT.

>> YOU PARAPHRASED SOME OF WHAT YOU SAID BUT I'M GOING TO PLAY IT SO THAT OTHERS WILL SEE YOU.

>> WE WERE TOLD THAT EVERYTHING I HAD BEEN TAUGHT TO REGARD AS ADVANCED A VICE, AND I STILL REGARD THEM AS ADVICES, UNDER FACTORIES AND WAS IN FACT, A VIRTUE.

GREED, SELFISHNESS, NO CARE FOR THE WEAKER, SHARP ELBOWS, SHARP KNEES.

>> SO GLENDA JACKSON, THAT WAS PRETTY BOLD AND BRAVE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU WERE TRUE TO YOURSELF AND TRUE TO YOUR POLITICS.

HOW ARE YOU RECEIVED IN THE CHAMBER AND DID THEY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY?

DID YOU HAVE TO SORT OF WARNED PEOPLE WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY?

>> GOOD HEAVENS, NO.

I WAS THERE.

I WAS NOT GUARANTEED TO BE CALLED.

NO ONE IS GUARANTEED TO BE CALLED IN THAT SENSE AND CERTAINLY, I REMEMBER WHEN I KICKED OFF WITH WHAT I WAS SAYING.

THERE WAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF BACKING FROM OBVIOUSLY THE CONSERVATIVE BENCHES BUT THAT DIED DOWN.

>> BECAUSE WE'RE IN THIS MOMENT NOW OF SO MUCH FOCUS ON WOMEN, ME, TOO, WOMEN RUNNING FOR OFFICE, WOMEN TRYING TO REALLY FINALLY YOU KNOW, CHANGE THE SCALES OF INEQUITY, WOULD YOU CALL YOURSELF A FEMINIST?

>> I THINK I WOULD, IN THE SENSE OF IT BEING MORE THAN DEMONSTRATING YOU ARE A FEMINIST BY BURNING YOUR BRA.

I NEVER BURNED BROUGHT MY LIFE BECAUSE I DON'T WEAR THEM BUT IF I COULD JUST KIND OF CUT TO THE BOTTOM LINE ABOUT ALL THIS AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, I WOULD JUST SAY THAT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, TWO WOMEN DIE EVERY WEEK AT THE HANDS OF THEIR PARTNER.

USUALLY A MAN, AND WE ARE DELUDING OURSELVES IF WE THINK THAT THIS MOVEMENT THAT HAS ARISEN IS GOING TO TRANSFORM THE LIVES FOR ALL WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD OVERNIGHT , BECAUSE IT ISN'T, AND WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE STEPS FORWARD -- WE ARE MOVING FORWARD, THAT THEY ARE SMALL STEPS AT THE MOMENT.

THEY ARE NOT GIANT STRIDES, BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING FORWARD.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO ONE OF YOUR EARLIER FILMS AND PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF "WOMEN IN LOVE.".

>> YOU DON'T THINK YOU'RE IN LOVE, DO YOU?

YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN LOVE ME, DO YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THE WORD.

>> YES, YOU DO.

YOU KNOW VERY WELL THAT YOU HAVE NEVER LOVED ME.

I LOVE YOU, DO YOU THINK?

>> NO.

>> THAT IS SO DRAMATIC AND SO SAD.

DOES IT TAKE YOU BACK AT ALL?

>> I DON'T WATCH IT.

I DON'T LIKE WATCHING MYSELF.

I'M COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE ABOUT SEEING MYSELF ON FILM.

I ONLY LOOK AT MYSELF REALLY ANYTHING, GOD, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO DO THAT.

IT'S ALL TOO LATE BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO CHANGE IT.

>> YOU DO HAVE YOUR KNOWN FOR BEING IRASCIBLE AND YOU DID NOT ACCEPT ANY OF YOUR OSCARS.

YOU WON TWO OSCARS, ONE FOR THAT FILM, AND YOU DID NOT GO TO HOLLYWOOD TO PICK HIM UP.

>> WELL, I WAS WORKING.

I COULD NOT GO.

I WOULD EXTRACT I WAS EXTREMELY FORTUNATE.

I WAS EMPLOYED SO NO, I DIDN'T.

>> ARE YOU GLAD YOU GOT THEM?

AND ARE YOU HAPPY NOW WITH ALL THE REVIEWS AND PLAYING THESE AMAZING ROLES?

>> I AM VERY HAPPY WE ARE PLAYING TO FULL HOUSES.

I'M HAPPY TO BE WORKING WITH THESE TWO REMARKABLE ACTRESSES.

I'M HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE AUDIENCE LISTENS AND LAUGHS AND HOW WE CLEARLY ARE DELIVERING WHAT IS A REMARKABLE PLAY, BUT WHAT I ALWAYS JIB AT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE OSCARS, PEOPLE SAY YOU WON THEM.

I NEVER COMPETED FOR ANYTHING.

THE WINNERS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR YOU AND THAT IS ALL VERY NICE FOR THEM BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU ANY BETTER.

>> GLENDA JACKSON.

THE WORLD LOST A TOUR DE FORCE IN HER PASSING.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, WELL- DESERVED RECOGNITION FOR ANOTHER MUCH LOVED ARTIST.

GLORIA ESTEFAN IS NOW THE FIRST LATINA TO BE INDUCTED INTO THE SONGWRITERS HALL OF FAME.

THE CUBAN-AMERICAN SINGER- SONGWRITER IS A MULTIPLE GRAMMY AWARD WINNER, PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM RECIPIENT IN ONE OF THE BEST-SELLING FEMALE MUSICIANS OF ALL TIME, SO FOR ANYONE WHO HAS NOT DANCED AT A WEDDING RECENTLY, WE LEAVE YOU NOW WITH A CLIP FROM ONE OF HER BEST LOVED SONGS, CONGO, COWRITTEN WITH HER HUSBAND, EMILIO AS TO FUN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WALKING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

NOW >> ♪